Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 27

Thread: Rebuilding Teams

  1. #1
    Location
    Pickering
    Rep Power
    40

    I...am your father.

    Default Rebuilding Teams

    Just some quick thoughts I had started writing in the Edmonton thread and moved to here instead...


    I've been following the game closely for a long time. And, as a "fan" of rebuilds who not only believes in them but enjoys watching them unfold (and doing them in fantasy hockey, for that matter), I've paid close attention to my share of them. Pittsburgh's rebuild was endless. Fans were really putting the pressure on and/or no longer caring (which is worse!). Remember, the team almost went bankrupt and was about to move. A generational player, added to several other high picks (Whitney, Armstrong, Staal, Orpik - turned into Kunitz, Dupuis, Sutter - Letang, Fleury) fixed things. Sure, they got Crosby as well, but at this point we can all agree that the Penguins are a 100-point team even if it was just Malkin there and no Crosby (since we've seen it.

    But towards the latter part of the rebuild, they were a joke. We were wondering how they can still be losing! The kids were in the lineup, they had Palffy and Lemieux. Why all the losses? Just when we thought we reached our limit in patience, after what was a seven-year rebuild...we had to wait longer. And longer. Eighth year. Ninth year. What? We couldn't understand it. Media pressure built.

    Then suddenly the Penguins had 105 points. They didn't go from 29th to 25th, to 20th to 15th to 10th. Nope, they went from 29th to 8th


    Chicago, same thing. We were at our wits end. The rebuild seemed like it 'should' end in Year X. Instead, it ended in Year X+3.


    In both cases, fans, analysts and media each figured that the rebuild was a failure. The coach sucked, the GM blew it. Look at those teams now. Each rebuild takes years longer than logic would dictate they should.



    And then we come to the Islanders. We all gave up on them two years ago. Wrong picks. Bad signings. Weak coach. Fire the GM. But look at them now. The Isles are a top team now and are in a position to stay that way for six to 10 years or more. The rebuild, their third rebuild in 20 years, took about eight years.



    Edmonton fans - suffer a little longer with your team. Hang in there. When this finally does pay off - and I thought we'd start seeing it two years ago let alone this year - it will continue paying off for a decade or more.
    The Best Fantasy Hockey Site

    15-Team Keeper, points only, best 12 fwd, 4 dman, 2 G count. Playoffs count.

    F - Crosby, Atkinson, Zuccarello, Granlund, Marchand, Silfverberg, Kesler, Sheary, K.Hayes, Perron, Kunitz, Panik, Coyle, Bonino, Lee, Kreider, Haula, Pageau, Lehkonen, Bailey, Guentzel
    G - Bobrovsky, Talbot, Pickard, Brossoit
    D - Yandle, Schultz, Letang, Krug, Vlasic, Demers, Walman

  2. #2
    robmyatt's Avatar
    robmyatt is online now
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    2,139
    Rep Power
    25

    Dobber Sports Pro

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    It would be interesting to see how many GMs lost jobs during those rebuilds, when ultimately it was their drafting and rebuilding that created the success later .
    http://twitter.com/robsintheshed

    12 Team - H2H Keeper League - 25 Players - 13 Keepers
    (G, A, P, +/-, Hits, PPP, SOG, W, GAA, SV%)
    Keepers
    C: Tavares, Benn,
    LW: Galchenyuk, Landeskog, .
    RW: Pominville, Little, Oshie, Yakupov
    D: Subban, Vatanen, Fowler
    G: Price, Bishop

  3. #3
    Location
    Prairies
    Rep Power
    40

    Dobber Sports Supreme Grand Master

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    Well... it's not fun to disagree with Dobber... but I'll do it here.
    Just because a team has been bad forever and stocks rebuild picks doesn't mean they are going to turn it around.
    The one key thing that a hockey fan should recall seeing on most every dynasty of a great playoff team... is a dynamic #1 center.

    The 80s Oilers... check... Gretzky.
    The 90s Penguins... check... Lemieux.
    The long line of Detroit teams... check... Yzerman, Datsyuk/Zetterberg.
    The 90s/00s Avalanche... check... Sakic/Forsberg.
    The current Blackhawks... check... Toews.
    The current LA Kings... check... Kopitar.
    The current Penguins... check... Crosby/Malkin.
    (and while most wouldn't include Bergeron in this list... he really is one of the best two-way/all-around centers of our generation. Underappreciated for lack of points.)
    The emerging Islanders... check... Tavares.

    The current Oilers... IMO... nope, sorry... RNH is not the guy... Draisatl will be a nice player... but he's not the guy either.
    If they get McDavid.... IF... yup, problem solved.

    In fact... whoever gets McDavid... will join the list above.

    But that #1 center is oh-so-important.
    If EDM can't find that #1 dynamic center... they won't make the jump.
    THIS... IMO... is why they've been floundering away from playoff-island so long. No anchor.

    My 2 cents.
    https://image.ibb.co/k3o8Sa/dobber_banner_sig.jpg

  4. #4
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Rep Power
    40

    Dobber Sports Demi-God

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    I thought Eichel was a generational talent as well, or is that just the media blowing smoke?


    10 Team, Points Only, Cash League

    25 Man Roster (no position), top 20 point getters count at end of month
    Keep 20/25 at seasons end, Cut 5 to FA for redrafting
    Goalie points W=2pt L=-1pt SHO=2pt

    Stamkos, Tavares, JaBenn, Couture, Wheeler, Lee, Turris, Steen, Letang, Kucherov, Byfuglien, Burns, Zuccarello, Hoffman, JSchwartz, Fabbri, Shattenkirk, KPalmieri, KConnor, BNelson, Konecny, Bjorkstrand, Ladd

    G- Vasilevskiy, Bobrovsky


    "Cleavage is like the sun. You can look, but don’t stare.. Unless you’re wearing sunglasses."

  5. #5
    Location
    Sudbury, Ontario
    Rep Power
    40

    Administrator

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    I thought Eichel was a generational talent as well, or is that just the media blowing smoke?
    Eichel would go #1 most years. Maybe not a generational talent but definitely a super prospect.


    Send me a PM if you have any issues or requests for Frozen Pool!


    UHL Calgary Flames
    24-team H2H Roto Dynasty (G, A, GWG, SHP, PPP, PIM, +/, SOG, Hits, Blks, FOW, W, SV, SV%, GAA, SO)

    Eastern Edge article archive

    Find me on Twitter for questions and chatter @DH_EricDaoust.

  6. #6
    Location
    Prairies
    Rep Power
    40

    Dobber Sports Supreme Grand Master

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    I actually haven't seen Eichel play enough to know if he's in Crosby/Toews/Kopitar/Tavares company.
    It sounds like he is.
    I'm not disqualifying him from being the piece EDM needs.

    My post was more to the fact that EDM needs a dynamic #1 center to make the jump.
    If Dobber is assuming that EDM will get one of McDavid/Eichel, fine, that should be in the OP (and not a "well, it's implied"... sorry Dobber... I know... I'm giving you a little bit of flak here... but if you imply it, just put it in there...)
    [IMO, Buffalo is still the worst team in the NHL... and I expect them to finish last in regular season points, which makes THEM, IMO, not EDM, the team that would be assured a top two draft spot.]

    But the current cast of players on EDM... even with a few more seasons... is not going to be enough... because it doesn't include a #1 dynamic center right now.
    And if they get some solid defense or wingers or a goalie... still won't be enough.
    They NEED the dynamic #1 center.
    That should be mentioned in the OP.
    This is my point.
    https://image.ibb.co/k3o8Sa/dobber_banner_sig.jpg

  7. #7
    Rep Power
    25

    Dobber Sports Guru

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    Dean Lombardi is the only GM I can think of who actually survived the rebuild years to enjoy the success afterwards. But then he communicated clearly to his owner and fans that it would be a 5 year rebuild and the Kings stuck pretty close to that, I think. I would say their's was the most perfectly executed example of a complete rebuild, especially since they didn't get the benefit of a top notch #1 pick along the way.

  8. #8
    Rep Power
    25

    Dobber Sports Guru

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    The two most interesting "rebuild/rebound" teams to me are Philly and Colorado. Both sorta had a few yo-yo seasons of alternately looking ok and then failing spectacularly to get top 3 picks, which, if you're going to do it, is the way to go I guess.

    Funny thing is, I think both drafted the talent foundations but haven't been able to make the other smart moves to support them. Colorado's summer particularly looks to have undone a lot of good work.

  9. #9
    Location
    Prairies
    Rep Power
    40

    Dobber Sports Supreme Grand Master

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    PHI & COL are definitely interesting.
    IMO, they at least have a jump on EDM because they have one or two #1 centers.
    And in order, I'd rank them (for re-building) COL > PHI > EDM.
    The one thing they all have in common is a crappy defense... some offensive D-man, but no rock two-way #1 D man.

    After a dynamic #1 center, the next thing a great team should have in the modern era (1990+) is a solid two-way D.
    The modern super-powers of hockey, already mentioned having dynamic center(s):
    COL had Blake.
    DET had Lidstrom.
    BOS has Chara.
    LA has Doughty.
    CHI has Keith.
    PIT has been able to get by with mostly offensive defenseman... and that actually shows up in their only ONE Cup (they should've won more by now, IMO, if their defense was better... Fleury too... but their D allows too many good opps).

    COL has to fix their D.
    PHI has to fix their D.
    EDM has to fix their D.

    For me, this is the 2nd most important thing needed in a rebuild (#1 dynamic center being KEY-most piece).
    So COL & PHI are closer to a successful rebuild... EDM way behind... EDM is 0 for 2 in key rebuild pieces, IMO.
    https://image.ibb.co/k3o8Sa/dobber_banner_sig.jpg

  10. #10
    Rep Power
    0

    Dobber Sports Prodigy

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    As a Carolina Hurricanes fan, it's not clear whether they are rebuilding or treading water. Frustrating.

  11. #11
    Rep Power
    25

    Dobber Sports Guru

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by markshiver View Post
    As a Carolina Hurricanes fan, it's not clear whether they are rebuilding or treading water. Frustrating.
    have all the main pieces, just can't fill in the gaps.

  12. #12
    Location
    Pickering
    Rep Power
    40

    I...am your father.

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    Well... it's not fun to disagree with Dobber... but I'll do it here.
    Just because a team has been bad forever and stocks rebuild picks doesn't mean they are going to turn it around.
    The one key thing that a hockey fan should recall seeing on most every dynasty of a great playoff team... is a dynamic #1 center.

    The 80s Oilers... check... Gretzky.
    The 90s Penguins... check... Lemieux.
    The long line of Detroit teams... check... Yzerman, Datsyuk/Zetterberg.
    The 90s/00s Avalanche... check... Sakic/Forsberg.
    The current Blackhawks... check... Toews.
    The current LA Kings... check... Kopitar.
    The current Penguins... check... Crosby/Malkin.
    (and while most wouldn't include Bergeron in this list... he really is one of the best two-way/all-around centers of our generation. Underappreciated for lack of points.)
    The emerging Islanders... check... Tavares.

    The current Oilers... IMO... nope, sorry... RNH is not the guy... Draisatl will be a nice player... but he's not the guy either.
    If they get McDavid.... IF... yup, problem solved.

    In fact... whoever gets McDavid... will join the list above.

    But that #1 center is oh-so-important.
    If EDM can't find that #1 dynamic center... they won't make the jump.
    THIS... IMO... is why they've been floundering away from playoff-island so long. No anchor.

    My 2 cents.
    Still waiting for the part where we disagree...
    The Best Fantasy Hockey Site

    15-Team Keeper, points only, best 12 fwd, 4 dman, 2 G count. Playoffs count.

    F - Crosby, Atkinson, Zuccarello, Granlund, Marchand, Silfverberg, Kesler, Sheary, K.Hayes, Perron, Kunitz, Panik, Coyle, Bonino, Lee, Kreider, Haula, Pageau, Lehkonen, Bailey, Guentzel
    G - Bobrovsky, Talbot, Pickard, Brossoit
    D - Yandle, Schultz, Letang, Krug, Vlasic, Demers, Walman

  13. #13
    Location
    Pickering
    Rep Power
    40

    I...am your father.

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    I thought Eichel was a generational talent as well, or is that just the media blowing smoke?
    Generational the way Mike Modano was generational...or Eric Staal...so not generational
    The Best Fantasy Hockey Site

    15-Team Keeper, points only, best 12 fwd, 4 dman, 2 G count. Playoffs count.

    F - Crosby, Atkinson, Zuccarello, Granlund, Marchand, Silfverberg, Kesler, Sheary, K.Hayes, Perron, Kunitz, Panik, Coyle, Bonino, Lee, Kreider, Haula, Pageau, Lehkonen, Bailey, Guentzel
    G - Bobrovsky, Talbot, Pickard, Brossoit
    D - Yandle, Schultz, Letang, Krug, Vlasic, Demers, Walman

  14. #14
    Location
    Pickering
    Rep Power
    40

    I...am your father.

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    I actually haven't seen Eichel play enough to know if he's in Crosby/Toews/Kopitar/Tavares company.
    That's a 'company'? The other three couldn't tie Crosby's skates. Not a company.

    If Dobber is assuming that EDM will get one of McDavid/Eichel, fine, that should be in the OP (and not a "well, it's implied"... sorry Dobber... I know... I'm giving you a little bit of flak here... but if you imply it, just put it in there...)
    I didn't imply it. Not assuming it. Getting McDavid would speed things up, nothing more.


    [IMO, Buffalo is still the worst team in the NHL... and I expect them to finish last in regular season points, which makes THEM, IMO, not EDM, the team that would be assured a top two draft spot.]
    my opinion also. And everyone else in the world's. In other news, the sky is blue.

    But the current cast of players on EDM... even with a few more seasons... is not going to be enough... because it doesn't include a #1 dynamic center right now.
    We don't know what EDM has right now. Similar to the Bruins seven/eight/nine years ago, we didn't know what Bergeron would be. Maybe Draisaitl is that guy and Nurse is the next Chara. We really don't know and to speak on it today is like discussing if there is life on the fifth planet from the star in the solar system 10 billion solar systems to the right. Either side could be right or wrong.
    The Best Fantasy Hockey Site

    15-Team Keeper, points only, best 12 fwd, 4 dman, 2 G count. Playoffs count.

    F - Crosby, Atkinson, Zuccarello, Granlund, Marchand, Silfverberg, Kesler, Sheary, K.Hayes, Perron, Kunitz, Panik, Coyle, Bonino, Lee, Kreider, Haula, Pageau, Lehkonen, Bailey, Guentzel
    G - Bobrovsky, Talbot, Pickard, Brossoit
    D - Yandle, Schultz, Letang, Krug, Vlasic, Demers, Walman

  15. #15
    Location
    Pickering
    Rep Power
    40

    I...am your father.

    Default Re: Rebuilding Teams

    The point of the OP is that - take the year where you've felt that they've had more than enough time, and that your frustration is at it's peak and that you see zero hope for anything improving. Then add three years to that moment. And then 'boom' the rebuild is suddenly over and all is good for the next decade or more.

    That's what I've learned. Analyze it, break it down, argue it, point out this, that and the other thing. But the bottom line is, when you revisit this post in three years you will see that I'm right. I don't know how, and if I could give the formula as to the hows and whys then NHL teams would be in bidding wars over me.
    The Best Fantasy Hockey Site

    15-Team Keeper, points only, best 12 fwd, 4 dman, 2 G count. Playoffs count.

    F - Crosby, Atkinson, Zuccarello, Granlund, Marchand, Silfverberg, Kesler, Sheary, K.Hayes, Perron, Kunitz, Panik, Coyle, Bonino, Lee, Kreider, Haula, Pageau, Lehkonen, Bailey, Guentzel
    G - Bobrovsky, Talbot, Pickard, Brossoit
    D - Yandle, Schultz, Letang, Krug, Vlasic, Demers, Walman

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •