2016/2017 Champion's League: Early Planning

[metaldude26]

Off topic, but how does one get in on this little league circuit you guys have going?

Not calling it little league would be a start.

[forumname]

Not calling it little league would be a start.

If trash talk isn't encouraged then I retract my question.

[metaldude26]

If trash talk isn't encouraged then I retract my question.

Oh it's encouraged.

[Pengwin7]

Yup, you are wrong. I have never used Draft Guru to draft. Played with it after the fact to analyze my draft process, and only just once. In fact, the last 3 RHRS drafts, I have gone in with nothing more than the players pre-ranked in Yahoo. Do you also consider that unethical?

I apologize.
Sorry.
(not sure where I got that from... honestly...)

[Pengwin7]

Off topic, but how does one get in on this little league circuit you guys have going?

If we really do go through with this, then there will be about 5-6 leagues that feed into a "Champions League".
*3 teams will come out of the Dobber EXPERTS league, which is composed of Dobber's staff of writers.
*3 teams will come out of the Dobber PRO league, which is composed of teams that have won or finished highly in a Dobber ENTRY league
*1+1 teams will come out of each Dobber ENTRY league - only the winners - there are two leagues this year.
*1 team will come out of the Rocky Horror Roto Show - which is probably the best collection of fantasy hockey minds in any roto league I've seen.
*1 team will come out of the Comish Dynasty, which is a league run through the Dobber forums for years now.
*1 team will come out of the UHL, which I believe is 24 team keeper league consisting of Dobber members.
*The 12th spot will be offered to Dobber for the first year of the league. After that, it will be the previous Champion's spot.

So... best way to get into the Champion's League is to enter a Dobber ENTRY league and win.
If you win a Dobber ENTRY league, your odds win increase automatically since the top 3 from the promoted Dobber PRO league all qualify.

I've always thought the forums should have a "CHAMPION" for a year... and a ladder to feed up to that.

We've also proposed that the CHAMPION will be based on aggregate standings from both ROTO & H2H leagues.
Having all 12 entrants in two leagues forces them to do well on two different fantasy systems and manage different players.
It will remove a bit of the luck from having one terrible draft or one very lucky draft.

[Shoeless]

I think Dobber Leagues are grossly over-served here. Hell, Dobber Experts play in RHRS to learn what humility in fantasy hockey means.

Here is how I recommend it be set up:

Dobber: 1
Dobber Experts: 2
Dobber Pro: 2
Dobber Entry: 0
Comish: 2
UHL: 2
RHRS: 2
Wildcard: 1 to be selected by a panel of forum members

[Pengwin7]

Good recommendation.

re: Each Leagues entrants.

I'm fine downgrading the "Experts" league... and they won't like to hear this... but it IS a league granted to writers - there really isn't any previous "winning" to get them there. There's a case to decrease this, but for the upcoming year, I've slotted it at 3 and would like to keep it there... to match...

The "Pro" league is actually composed of past winners/high-finishers in the Entry league, it is really the ONLY promoted league that exists. I think that should stay at 3.
The PRO league is also a 16-team league! 16 teams of proven skilled one-year GMs. Most other leagues are only 12 teams. So this league, IMO, really should have a high amount of qualifiers.

The Entry leagues, well, it may just be ONE season and in the future, perhaps they don't get a spot, but it's still a "champion".

As for Comish & UHL... those are tricky spots.
I believe those are both "keeper" leagues... are they not?

The problem with a "keeper" league is that a team may be stacked and be good year-in-year-out.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the GM is the best in a "one-year league" with new players.
I've seen some GMs that really good at wheeling trades with GMs that are about to give-up, walk-away, and just give up good players.
In my own dynasty keeper, we have one GM that is really, really good at trading with rebuilding teams... but I'm not convinced he could rock a one-year league.
Elite "keeper league GMs". Some are also good at one-year leagues, some are not.
Some GMs are actually really qualified... but may have taken over an abandoned team in a keeper (I've done with this).
Perhaps a GM's adopted team is nowhere near a top team for 2-3 years while they are undertake their rebuild.
For all we know, the best GM with "one-year league" draft prowess may be undertaking a rebuild in those leagues.
Perhaps that GM was a past year champion.

I'm on the fence about the "wildcard"... maybe in Year 2.
The qualifying 11 teams might vote on somebody to invite.
Then again... it's supposed to be a "League of Champions"... and it's not like European Soccer just "invites" a team.
Ultimately, I don't like the "wildcard" concept.
A team should be able to finish top 1, 2, or 3 in a standings to get in.

RHRS is a really good league.
Best group of GMs I've ever played with.
Then again, I don't have first hand knowledge of GMs in the UHL or Comish Dynasty, so I can't compare.

Some people have teams in multiple leagues, and I do think we need to cap entry eligibility.
Perhaps a team has to declare for eligibility in TWO leagues prior to any season.
But I don't think somebody should have better odds if they have a team in FOUR leagues... and I believe one Dobber forum member does.

Good thoughts though.
Great for discussion - which is still completely open at this phase.
All rules subject to discussion & change.

[The Comish]

I agree somewhat with Shoeless. There should be as many "winners" as possible, third place isn't exactly winning regardless of the quality of talent in the league. I think a case could be made to include the winner of Tier 2 in the Comish Dynasty. The fact that the guy currently leading Tier 2 is the top team in the league (when you use Combined standings). Two of the top five teams in that league are from Tier 2, so yeah there's justification for the Tier 2 winner to have a spot in the Champion's League.

Definitely agree with taking spot(s) from the Experts League for the same reasons you list - writing about fantasy hockey doesn't necessarily mean you are a great/winning manager, even though many/most I suspect are pretty good.

For the record, I'm in three of these leagues, although next year, it will likely only be two. Regardless of how many leagues you are in, you still have to win. An argument could be made that the more leagues you are in, decreases your chances of winning as you simply can't be as attentive with multiple pools to maintain. I know that's the case for me this year - I'm not as focused as I could be if I had less teams to take care of.

Peng, keep working on this - it's an awesome concept that I hope comes to fruition (haha, that's the first time I've ever used the word "fruition" in the forums!).

[Pengwin7]

Comish, since I don't know much about the Comish Dynasty, perhaps you & some in the Experts/Writers league can discuss this issue.
If it is better allocated as 2 (Experts) and 2 (CD)... I'm OK... as I can't really evaluate either league, not being in either.

I've done PRO, ENTRY, and RHRS... so I can estimate weight/proficiency in those.

Talk to a few people about that potential allocation change and report back on whether they think it's fair.
Mostly, it's downgrading the Experts entrants to two... so you need to really talk to the people in the top half of that league this year.

[austeane]

I am obviously against it being cut down to two, as that is the only qualifying league I am in and I have been bouncing around the top 5 slots all year. Currently a point out of third.

That being said, I agree that it should probably be cut down to two. All of our writers know fantasy hockey, but not all of the best fantasy hockey players can/do write. I think keeping it at three for next year would be appreciated, since that is what was originally outlined. For the year after, I think we could see a pretty good revamping.

Eventually, a tier two champions league would be probably the best idea. The tier two champions league consists of champions from all the different ultra-competitive associations and leagues. Could have as many as 20 teams if that is how many leagues qualify (as determined by a panel made up of people like Shoeless/Pengwin/etc.). No continuity in that league, either you make it to the top tier or you aren't in the league any more.

Then you could have the top five from the last year's champions league guaranteed entry, along with the top 2-3 from the tier two, and the rest from a couple of very select leagues (RHRS, Experts).

[Shoeless]

Rethink@me

So a champions league should be champions, right?

So how about these champions for starters?

Dobber (1) following years, this league's champ returns
2014/15 Expert (1)
2013/14 Expert (1)
2014/15 Pro (1)
2013/14 Pro (2)
2014/15 Entry (2)
2014/15 UHL (1)
2014/15 CD Tier 1 (1)
2014/15 CD Tier 2 (1)
2014/15 RHRS (1)

The following year when it loses the option of a 2nd Pro Champ why not look at keeping divisional winners (H2H, Roto) in the Champions league. So effectively with this model the winner of the expert and pro leagues this year get a free ride for two years in the Champions League and I am fine with that.

In the event there is someone who would twice qualify, I think the extra slot is filled by the GM placing 2nd overall the previous year or 3rd overall if that person qualified with a division win. Anyone in the league has previously qualified as a champ.

This way, other than Dobber the first year, only champs play in the champions league.

If any of the 12 invitees decline then I think it should be at the discretion of the Commissioner to invite a previous year champion from one of the above mentioned leagues.
.

Just a few thoughts.
I also think both draft orders should be randomized

[Pengwin7]

That's a pretty good method.
I'm definitely up for giving that some consideration.

As for the "draft order"... I'm 100% behind "selecting draft order" in a snaking fashion.
I think this will have some incredible strategical elements to it.
AND... it will give some "BUILD UP" in the months leading up to the drafts (mid-September).
I'm thinking that as early as August 1st, we start the snake-draft for picking drafting position.
At their turn, Teams/GMs can choose any of the available 24 slots: 1-12 in ROTO, 1-12 in H2H.
There would be a thread with a draft board where people select their slots.

In a "randomization", you could have one GM magically win the #1 overall draft slot for both the H2H and ROTO leagues... I think that's a pretty significant advantage.
You could also have a GM get the #9 or #10 draft slot in both leagues... which, I think, is about the worst spot to draft from in a 12-team league. (I hate being late... and off-the-turn...)
With a snaking draft order selection, the team that chooses first is likely to take the #1 overall in ROTO (I would assume), but then will get the last slot overall.
We could have a "LOTTERY" (among upper tier champions ONLY) for the order of selecting draft order.
This method is done for the Kentucky Derby, where a lottery determines which owner/breeder/horse gets to first choose their post-place (i.e. "starting gate").
It's pretty neat.

Good thoughts though.
Keep 'em comin'.

BTW - as of right now, you are looking really good for the RHRS invitation!
Great team again this year shoeless!!!
Temek looks like he's join you... regardless if the RHRS gets one or two invites... he's absolutely running away with the Dobber Tier II PRO Campbell league.


(ps. As of this point in the fantasy year, looks like I'll be "organizing" instead of "participating"... so throw me a few bones here )

[Shoeless]

I like the randomizing of the pick position - that sounds like a fun approach actually and pretty fair - hadn't thought it through.

Just curious if you have thought through a tiebreaker formula once the results for each league are combined?

There is still lots of work to be done in RHRS - we shall see.

[Pengwin7]

Just curious if you have thought through a tiebreaker formula once the results for each league are combined?

ROTO finish is my proposed tie-breaker.
IMO, Roto is typically more skill-based than H2H.

Teams would be awarded points by their finish in each league.
1st place team of 12 is awarded with 12pts.
Last place team of 12 is awarded with 1pt.

TeamA may finish 2nd (11 of 12pts) in Roto and 4th (9 of 12pts) in H2H. 11+9=20pts
TeamB may finish 3rd (10 of 12pts) in Roto and 3rd (10 of 12pts) in H2H. 10+10=20pts

Team A would be crowned Champ based on higher Roto finish.

[H2H would be a top six qualifies for playoffs, top two get a deserved-bye, ensuring a top four finish.]
The H2H component could still add a serious measure of goodluck/badluck... but it also creates for the EXCITING FINISH (!!!) that Roto typically doesn't provide.

And it should all still be fun and entertaining, which the H2H component would provide!

[horrorfan]

Team A would be crowned Champ based on higher Roto finish.

Just to be annoying, what if they have an equal roto finish, which is possible?