[Conspiracy Theory] Sunrise, Florida: Tanking for Re-Location

[Pengwin7]

This made my morning.
Not sure if it's true, but I would be a diet coke that the Panthers first choice would be Las Vegas, and that if the Panthers move, that's where they will go.

That'd be interested.
Honestly - I have no idea who the leading candidate is for a location.
Can't say I've studied the consideration of Vegas v. Seattle v. QC.

Why do you think Vegas?

[rataylor22]

This made my morning.

Not sure if it's true, but I would be a diet coke that the Panthers first choice would be Las Vegas, and that if the Panthers move, that's where they will go.

I would think if any franchise moves, the first choice would be Seattle, even before Quebec City or GTA. I think Vegas to any of the Big 4 are concurrently very appealing and very dangerous. I don't doubt the NHL would like to move to Vegas, but I think Seattle would be seen as a safer and more stable choice, and therefore more attractive.

[vitun-tyhmä]

No. Just internet links, hopping from one article to the next.
My pattern recognition and logic are (supposedly) very high... and not surprising us-types like to theorize and form conspiracy theories.
I/we are delusional sometimes.
It can be a blessing and a fault.

Not saying I'm right, I'd put my odds at 15% of being right. (statistically being realistic here).

Ultimate "conspiracy theory" on these forums still belongs to fzusher - who once upon a time forecasted the San Jose Niemi signing pursuant to their Hjalmarsson offer-sheet.
THAT... was an all-time beauty!!!
He's the master of the hockey conspiracy prediction!
I'll have to see if I can find that.

Wow, that's some Jack Ryan work right there, you must be a little ADHD, haha

[Savvy1982]

That'd be interested.
Honestly - I have no idea who the leading candidate is for a location.
Can't say I've studied the consideration of Vegas v. Seattle v. QC.

Why do you think Vegas?

Four reasons:

1.) The lack of any professional sports franchise: All the major sports have have avoided LV because of the association with gambling, but it's hard to ignore a city of just under 2 million people, and an absolutely obscene number of hotel rooms. Add into this the fact that UNLV games are VERY well attended, showing that the people of LV will support a local team.

2.) they are building a 20,000 seat arena, that will be dual-purposes for both basketball and hockey. I'm sure that the developers would prefer basketball, but the NHL would do well to be the first team in there.

3.) There are a LOT of snowbirds that overwinter in LV - I know this theory has been held up for Florida and Arizona and they haven't panned out - but this arena won't be out in "middle of nowhere Glendale" - it's being built just off the strip.

4.) And that brings me to my final point - most people on the strip are there to have fun - I live in Canada and I constantly see billboards for "Vegas Specials" how hard would it be for the Vegas team to add themselves into Vegas Package Trips targeted at Canadians, or to have people selling tickets on the Strip along with Cirque de Soleil and Tom Jones tickets.

[Pengwin7]

^Nice post. (some REP for ya! And congrats on 1K!!!)

[Savvy1982]

^Nice post. (some REP for ya! And congrats on 1K!!!)

Thanks Pengwin, and I guess I forgot:

5.) It'll sort out that whole "2 more teams in the East than there are in the West" nonsense.

[Pengwin7]

Found it!

For those NOOBs on the boards:
Link to the ol' fzusher Niemi/Hjalm conspiracy theory.
An all-time great!

[yougo]

Four reasons:

1.) The lack of any professional sports franchise: All the major sports have have avoided LV because of the association with gambling, but it's hard to ignore a city of just under 2 million people, and an absolutely obscene number of hotel rooms. Add into this the fact that UNLV games are VERY well attended, showing that the people of LV will support a local team.

2.) they are building a 20,000 seat arena, that will be dual-purposes for both basketball and hockey. I'm sure that the developers would prefer basketball, but the NHL would do well to be the first team in there.

3.) There are a LOT of snowbirds that overwinter in LV - I know this theory has been held up for Florida and Arizona and they haven't panned out - but this arena won't be out in "middle of nowhere Glendale" - it's being built just off the strip.

4.) And that brings me to my final point - most people on the strip are there to have fun - I live in Canada and I constantly see billboards for "Vegas Specials" how hard would it be for the Vegas team to add themselves into Vegas Package Trips targeted at Canadians, or to have people selling tickets on the Strip along with Cirque de Soleil and Tom Jones tickets.

That's a great point for LasVegas. I'll add also that the geographic position of Vegas is more enticing for the NHL since there is one less team in the Western Conference.

As a Habs fan, I want a team back in Quebec City. That rivality was just epic, and it will also probably mean that Tampa will change division so no Stamkos,Drouin,Hedman,Vasilevsky for my Habs.... I'm being very objective here

[rataylor22]

Four reasons:

1.) The lack of any professional sports franchise: All the major sports have have avoided LV because of the association with gambling, but it's hard to ignore a city of just under 2 million people, and an absolutely obscene number of hotel rooms. Add into this the fact that UNLV games are VERY well attended, showing that the people of LV will support a local team.

2.) they are building a 20,000 seat arena, that will be dual-purposes for both basketball and hockey. I'm sure that the developers would prefer basketball, but the NHL would do well to be the first team in there.

3.) There are a LOT of snowbirds that overwinter in LV - I know this theory has been held up for Florida and Arizona and they haven't panned out - but this arena won't be out in "middle of nowhere Glendale" - it's being built just off the strip.

4.) And that brings me to my final point - most people on the strip are there to have fun - I live in Canada and I constantly see billboards for "Vegas Specials" how hard would it be for the Vegas team to add themselves into Vegas Package Trips targeted at Canadians, or to have people selling tickets on the Strip along with Cirque de Soleil and Tom Jones tickets.

All good points. I still think the NHL would find Seattle more appealing. I think the Seahawks/12th Man thing is a better representation of local fans supporting a sports team than UNLV (college is just a different beast than professional sports).

Being from Alberta, going to Seattle is a very popular option to go see baseball/football games. Part of that is not having those sports out west in Canada (CFL, but not NFL) but the other part is it is a relatively close local, that is fairly cheap to fly or drive to, and it is an easy cheap 'vacation' for people. Lots of Albertans go to Seattle for getaway sports vacations, I'm sure they would add hockey to that.

It also would cater to the "balance" theory. I don't disagree the NHL would love to go to Vegas. I just think Seattle is first choice and seen as more stable/less risky. The arena thing is the only advantage Vegas currently has (IMO) and there are tons of talks/speculation about a dual basketball/hockey arena in Seattle.

[vitun-tyhmä]

Four reasons:

1.) The lack of any professional sports franchise: All the major sports have have avoided LV because of the association with gambling, but it's hard to ignore a city of just under 2 million people, and an absolutely obscene number of hotel rooms. Add into this the fact that UNLV games are VERY well attended, showing that the people of LV will support a local team.

2.) they are building a 20,000 seat arena, that will be dual-purposes for both basketball and hockey. I'm sure that the developers would prefer basketball, but the NHL would do well to be the first team in there.

3.) There are a LOT of snowbirds that overwinter in LV - I know this theory has been held up for Florida and Arizona and they haven't panned out - but this arena won't be out in "middle of nowhere Glendale" - it's being built just off the strip.

4.) And that brings me to my final point - most people on the strip are there to have fun - I live in Canada and I constantly see billboards for "Vegas Specials" how hard would it be for the Vegas team to add themselves into Vegas Package Trips targeted at Canadians, or to have people selling tickets on the Strip along with Cirque de Soleil and Tom Jones tickets.

You beat me to it, I was going to argue many of the same points. I'm actually surprised that there have never been any major franchises in LV, it would seem like a perfect location. And hockey there I think would work much better than in Florida. Think of all the people from all over the world who come to Las Vegas each year, Europeans, Canadians, Russians, lots of hockey fans! Plus think of the potential for bachelor parties and stuff like that? I'm surprised there has not been serious talk of LV previously

[LawMan]

Interesting points by Pengwin to get the ball-rolling. It sure seems like one hell of bold strategy to:

1. buy a hockey team
2. purposefully lose millions upon millions to;
3. be allowed to relocate said team which requires;
4. relocation fees, buying out a lease and other large expenses; all so
5. you can have a hockey team in Seattle/LV/QC City which you then sell for a large profit to an actual hockey fan??

I think the biggest hurdle is getting Gary Bettman to admit he was wrong. Bettman has done a lot of good for the NHL financially. His big push was to get into major US markets, regardless of geography. He has fought tooth and nail to keep the Coyotes in Arizona as long as he has and he seems certain to insist they stay. Ironically, he allowed the Thrashers to leave a much larger city with relatively little fight. It seems more likely now then ever that the Panthers could move but the odds of it happening are still not great.

Four reasons:

1.) The lack of any professional sports franchise: All the major sports have have avoided LV because of the association with gambling, but it's hard to ignore a city of just under 2 million people, and an absolutely obscene number of hotel rooms. Add into this the fact that UNLV games are VERY well attended, showing that the people of LV will support a local team.

2.) they are building a 20,000 seat arena, that will be dual-purposes for both basketball and hockey. I'm sure that the developers would prefer basketball, but the NHL would do well to be the first team in there.

3.) There are a LOT of snowbirds that overwinter in LV - I know this theory has been held up for Florida and Arizona and they haven't panned out - but this arena won't be out in "middle of nowhere Glendale" - it's being built just off the strip.

4.) And that brings me to my final point - most people on the strip are there to have fun - I live in Canada and I constantly see billboards for "Vegas Specials" how hard would it be for the Vegas team to add themselves into Vegas Package Trips targeted at Canadians, or to have people selling tickets on the Strip along with Cirque de Soleil and Tom Jones tickets.

Las Vegas will be a very interesting City for any of the big-4 to enter into. I liked the statement of it being both "very enticing and very dangerous".

I still think Seattle makes more sense over Las Vegas because:
1. It's larger than Las Vegas (Metro of 3.6M to LV's 2.0M);
2. It's safer. The major 4 leagues are generally safe in their business decisions, I think they fear Vegas more than they want it.
3. Seattle doesn't currently have an NBA team. No winter sports competition, this means no "clutter" in the marketplace. Las Vegas has tourists but its literally the most cluttered city in North America with respect to entertainment options. Your advertising budget would have to be absolutely massive to get people to see you and you have to beat out: Gambling, Night Clubs, Cirque, Magic, Céline etc. etc. for entertainment dollars.

A final interesting thought about Vegas. How would the NHL feel about having the MGM own an NHL team? MGM Resorts International is a massive corporation. It could pump easily pump millions and millions of dollars into a team without batting an eyelash. It builds billion dollar casinos on a whim. Also, since it owns half the Las Vegas Strip, it is very well positioned to market to millions of people a year for free. Room key holder has a $20 off coupon. Tons of free offers to stay in their rooms and get a package deal. Finally, given their business strategy MGM would have no interest in ever moving the team from Vegas. The more I think about it the more I think this is the way the NHL should enter Vegas.

The downside is being associated with a corporation who is in the gambling industry but I think the industry is cleaned up enough now that it may be less of a worry.

Final thought, the Nevada legislature may have to review gambling on NHL games if an NHL team was brought to town. It may be a requirement of the NHL or it may be something they self-impose. The last thing any one involved in would want is a game throwing scandal with players, officials or management. A quick google search tells me NHL betting makes up around 2% of Nevada action so hardly a huge loss.

Wow long rant. I'm interested to see how this plays out.

[Pengwin7]

Interesting points by Pengwin to get the ball-rolling. It sure seems like one hell of bold strategy to:

1. buy a hockey team
2. purposefully lose millions upon millions to;
3. be allowed to relocate said team which requires;
4. relocation fees, buying out a lease and other large expenses; all so
5. you can have a hockey team in Seattle/LV/QC City which you then sell for a large profit to an actual hockey fan??

I think the biggest hurdle is getting Gary Bettman to admit he was wrong. Bettman has done a lot of good for the NHL financially. His big push was to get into major US markets, regardless of geography. He has fought tooth and nail to keep the Coyotes in Arizona as long as he has and he seems certain to insist they stay. Ironically, he allowed the Thrashers to leave a much larger city with relatively little fight. It seems more likely now then ever that the Panthers could move but the odds of it happening are still not great.

Awesome comments!
Sent ya some R-E-P!!!

re: Atlanta. It was the city's 2nd shot at a franchise. They clearly failed and Bettman was not going to get criticized for getting a team back to Winnipeg. That was a very, sensible move.
re: Phoenix. We have to remember that the franchise was owned by the NHL. They would have been absolutely slammed for making it THEIR decision to re-locate it. It may still go, but the next time it won't be the NHL "pushing it".

With my Florida conspiracy, I've started to really start to put more stock in the fact that Viola & Bettman both graduated from New York Law.
Two brilliant men, with law degrees, sit down at a table for a discussion.

Viola says: I'd really like to buy the team and give it a go in Florida for a few years.
{pause} {whispering eyes}
Bettman says: The franchise has lost money, and we'd love to see you try to turn it around.

Done.
Understanding.
I think there's actually enough words there for both parties to get their vibe across.

By the way, I'm not saying Viola/Cibu need to move it themselves.
They could very well sell it at a HUGE profit.
Let's say it's mid-next June... Florida shows a $20m loss... and the lottery has declared them for the #1 pick.

They don't even need to sell the whole thing, just the "Panthers" part.
This is what the Atlanta Spirit did. They sold the "Thrashers" part... and kept managing the rest.

That's a BIG, BIG investment win.
A $10 or $20m loss for two years is a drop in the bucket if they are allowed to sell the "Panthers franchise"... a la, Atlanta. (Precedent)

[Dakkster]

What annoys me regarding the Florida situation is that owners and whatnot say "oh, the team isn't profitable", when they also own the arena and if you count concessions, conserts and all that, you're standing on a goldmine. But the team is still needed to get that arena. They're not the only team to do that. It's just cooking the books. Happens everywhere, just as annoying every time.

[mounD]

Florida Panthers, meet ILLUMINATI.

[doulos]

What annoys me regarding the Florida situation is that owners and whatnot say "oh, the team isn't profitable", when they also own the arena and if you count concessions, conserts and all that, you're standing on a goldmine. But the team is still needed to get that arena. They're not the only team to do that. It's just cooking the books. Happens everywhere, just as annoying every time.

This is why I put very little stock in these guys saying it isn't profitable, or they are losing money etc. Everyone is going to say that and they have the accountants to back it up too right?