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Thread: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by yougo View Post
    http://comeonhitme.wordpress.com/201...d-her-dragons/

    This thread had me googling some stuff. Came up upon this. Quite interesting. Love the Ice Dragon part.
    Reading AFFC currently, and came across something that reminded me of this theory you posted. Nimble Dick Crabb is taking Brienne to the Whispers on Cracklaw Point to look for Sansa. He mentions "Squishers" which are monsters that come out of the ocean to snatch little kids....they look like men but have scales instead of hair, and....they're all "fish belly white". They were supposedly all killed off by the First Men which lines up well with the timeframe of the White Walkers. Hmm.
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    I skipped ahead a bit in this thread so may have missed seeing this question previously posted, but who do you think Cersei's champion in Book 5 "aDwD" really is?

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    The Mountain. I thought that was pretty much known?

    Crazy episode tonight. No amazing "wildfire moment" like Blackwater....but still great. Surprised they left Stannis out though. I was reading around and this episode was only 50 minutes. I feel like they could have added Stannis in an extra 10....but maybe not.

    The finale is going to be insane. Won't be a "tie up" episode like the previous ones have seemed to be. Tyrion escaping, Arya/Hound resolution, Stannis at the Wall, Bran and I do believe it will end with Brienne/Pod meeting Lady Stoneheart. Dany.....who cares
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    Could that giant anchor/chain have been a shout out to all the people who were bummed about Tyrion not using the chain in Blackwater. That never really bothered me but I know some people who wanted to see it.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    There's so many things that people wanted to see from the books that if they included everything then each season would literally require 20 episodes lol (which may not be a bad idea).

    They extended Storm of Swords to 2 seasons, it'll be interesting to see if they do the same with Feast for Crows which is a much more boring, less eventful book (the only one i struggled through).
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    Quote Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
    It would be a shame if he doesn't give another writer permission to finish it. But at the same time it wouldn't ruin the legacy of the series. It would still be really disappointing to see it happen. I believe it's happened before with a writer in a similar situation...

    In any case, I do think he has told the writers/executive producers of GoT what the ending will entail. So there should be some closure.
    Martin is a rather vehement opponent of the "fan-fiction" movement, so it certainly doesn't surprise me in the least that he would prohibit any other writer from finishing or augmenting his work. It would be wildly inconsistent of him to do otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyrobot View Post
    The Mountain. I thought that was pretty much known.
    I guess I should have said "besides the Mountain." Clegane just seems too easy a choice here.

    I thought I heard that GRRM had a plan in place in case he doesn't complete the series before something unfortunate happens, or am I just wishful thinking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    There's so many things that people wanted to see from the books that if they included everything then each season would literally require 20 episodes lol (which may not be a bad idea).

    They extended Storm of Swords to 2 seasons, it'll be interesting to see if they do the same with Feast for Crows which is a much more boring, less eventful book (the only one i struggled through).
    I wouldn't be surprised if most of what was in FfC was left out of the series entirely. They've already pretty much maneuvered to do just that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Instant Karma View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if most of what was in FfC was left out of the series entirely. They've already pretty much maneuvered to do just that.
    All the "Dorne stuff" could be easily introduced by little segments in each of the first 4-5 episodes of season 5 IMO.

    I'm also guessing that ADWD will require two seasons on television to really match the depth of the story of book 5.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Yeah... I have serious concerns about the sheer length of TV show vs. Book.

    If Martin wants to do the books right... he's look at three more (Book 6, 7, 8)... and if he's not rushed, that's 3 years per book, which means we might get:

    2015: Book 6
    2018: Book 7
    2021: Book 8 (finish)

    IIRC, the TV show has the cast signed up for a maximum 7yrs (standard TV contract) and is confirmed for at least 6 years.
    2011: Book 1 (GoT)
    2012: Book 2 (CoK)
    2013: Book 3 (SoS Part I)
    2014: Book 3 (SoS Part II +)
    2015/2016: Books 4/5
    ...
    By 2020, they'd be completing the 10th season - I can't see them filling up a Season 7/8/9/10 with scraps from the books.


    I mean... it won't be close... Martin just can't write that fast.
    It will be super, super interesting what they do with the TV shows because if they go off on tangents, they'll lose audience.

    It seems like the peak of many shows for pure "hype level" is about 5 or 6 seasons.
    That's why Breaking Bad (5 seasons, the last split into two parts, so sort of 6) was perfect.
    Dexter was one of my other fave shows... but that seemed to peak in Season 4 (Lithgow) and drag from there.

    I'd almost think that the best route for GoT, the TV show, is to go through the first 5 books in full...
    then, for Season 8/9/10 switch to a FULL NEW CAST for the events around 273 AC - 276 AC... back when Tyrion was born & Oberyn/Elia Martell were born.
    That would be awesome.

    Some characters they could even try to keep and... make them look younger...
    Young hand of king: Tywin (and same actor)
    Young Barristan Selmy (but same actor)

    + Young Ned Stark & Young Robert Baratheon could be different
    That would be awesome

    + Add New Ones
    Mad Aerys with Rhaella
    14yr old Rhaegar

    Some good stuff there... though a lot of the depth of the "full story" of asoiaf is steeped in that era... so to display it without giving away the book ending... would be tricky.

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    With the Stanley Cup ending, I've spent my in-between days going full-bore on asoIaF (Game of Thrones).

    I believe Game of Thrones is actually... (wait for the sappiness)... a love story.

    Tell me if any of you guys like this, I have a theory that a LOT of the characters in the book are NOT from their "default" fathers.
    And - it should be noted - that the first book of the series revolves around the storyline that one's children (Robert Baratheon) are NOT his own.
    The mother is always the mother, this we know.
    But the father could be... anybody!

    Alright, here we go....

    Born 274 AC: Tyrion Lannister.
    Actual Mother: Joanna Lannister (died at child birth).
    Assumed Father: Tywin Lannister.
    Actual Father: Rhaegar Targaryen (age 14).
    Comments: Joanna Lannister - Rhaella Targaryen - Princess of Dorne ("Love seekers" Trio). Tyrion had different colour eyes.

    Born 275 AC: Viserys Targaryen.
    Actual Mother: Rhaella Targaryen.
    Assumed Father: Mad King Aerys II Targaryen.
    Actual Father: Ser Bonifer Hasty.
    Comments: Seeking her "True Love". Bonifer won tournie & crowed her Q of L&B. (And might this story be passed from mom to son?)

    Born 275 AC?: Rhaenys Targaryen.
    Actual Mother: Elia Martell.
    Assumed Father: Rhaegar Targaryen.
    Actual Father: Oberyn Martell (incest!).
    Comments: Elia & Oberyn will "very close", "inseperable" AND (wait for it), the child "looked like a Martell". (Traditionally, the purple eyes & light gold hair of the Targs was dominant.)

    Born 283 AC: Aegon VI Targaryen.
    Actual Mother: Elia Martell.
    Assumed Father: Rhaegar Targaryen.
    Actual Father: Oberyn Martell (incest!).
    Comments: Well, we find out later that this baby was switched pre-birth. And how about the pure vengeance that Oberyn Martell has for the Mountain that Rides. My, my, my.

    Born 283 AC: Jon Snow.
    Assumed Mother: ????.
    Assumed Father: Eddard Stark.
    Actual Mother: Lyanna Stark (grey eyes).
    Actual Father: Rhaegar Targaryen.
    Comments: Jon has grey eyes so dark they border on black <--- Quick, what color font is this?
    Comments: Upon birth of their son, Rhaegar & Lyanna actually name him "Aegon" in regard for the original Aegon I... but moreso for Aegon V: the first of the Targaryen line to chase "true love".

    Born 283 AC (not 284 AC): Daenerys Targaryen.
    Assumed Mother: Rhaella Targaryen.
    Assumed Father: Mad King Aerys II Targaryen.
    Actual Mother: Lyanna Stark.
    Actual Father: Rhaegar Targaryen (purple eyes).

    Comments: The story is that she was born on Dragonstone - in a storm (hence, Stormborn), 9 months after her mother Rhaella fled to Dragonstone in her early days of pregnancy upon being raped by Aerys II the night he burned Brandon & Rickard Stark.
    Or...
    Pengwin's theory:
    Daenerys was born the twin brother of Jon Snow at the Tower of Joy.
    For the record, Dany came out first. Jon second. And Rhaegar says... (with mom holding Jon, and staring at a wetnurse holding Dany)... There must be one more. (But here is, of course, he just forgot... Tyrion.)
    Because Dany had white hair & purple eyes, she could not be raised in Westeros.
    She was thus sent (wait for it) via 9yr old Tyrion Lannister to Kingsguard Master-at-Arms Willem Darry.
    The fabricated story to protect Daenerys lineage is crafted (by whom???) and conveyed to be repeated often by Willem Darry - at promise to Kingsguard/Rhaegar:
    Rhaella Targaryen was impregnated by Aerys II just before being moved from King's Landing. [convenient... by GRRM... since nobody on mainland Westeros would be able to confirm her as "visibly pregnant".]
    Rhaella gave birth to Dany on Dragonstone during a big storm, and thus named Stormborn. [However, make a list of all the witnesses for this. (pause). You should come up with two: Willem Darry & Viserys. Well, Willem Darry is asked to "repeat the story". And Viserys is 9yrs old at the time. Do you remember being 9yrs old? (3rd grade?). 9yr old boys don't know the difference from meeting a 9mo old baby vs. one-day old baby. 9yr olds also don't understand "pregnancy" or "child birth" well... and need not be monitoring his mommy's tummy birth.]
    She is "Stormborn" because the areas nearest to Dorne are often called "The Stormlands"... and, for all we know, there was some Storm on whenever the day of her/Jon's birth actually was.


    So... what do we have:
    1. The Rhaegar-Viserys-Daenerys siblings. Guess what. Vis is a bastard, not heir to throne. And Dany isn't from Rhaella. Thus, Rhaegar is the only true child of the Targaryen line from: King Aerys II & Rhaella.

    2. Rhaegar's first spawn (w/Joanna Lannister): Tyrion "Lannister" represents ONE alive Targaryen to be part of "three-headed dragon". Like his daddy Rhaegar, Tyrion was very "bookish". Tywin oft regards Tyrion as "not his son". The complications of a Targaryen making baby with non-Targaryen = mother death. (!!!). Tyrion has the one "black eye". And to think that Joanna slept with a 14-year old Rhaegar... and they formed an "imp"... well, if Aerys is "in the know" then he certainly isn't going to hook up Rhaegar with Cersei to make more imps. That pairing is off - and Aerys shall make the reason be that Tywin is simply his servant.

    3. The Rhaegar-Elia spawn: Rhaenys & Aegon VI are not Rhaegar's. Well, Rhaenys is dead, but was the daughter of Elia/Oberyn anyways. Aegon VI may still be alive... but he's not the Aegon VI you think... he's elsewhere as a 283AC baby, since he was switched out. Lots of 283AC babies in this book!

    4. Rhaegar's 2nd/3rd actual spawn: brother & sister: Jon Snow & Daenerys Targaryen. ***This is a lot more "exciting" than Dany being Jon's aunt?! Isn't it! ***
    When Jon is born, he has brown hair... which can be hidden as a bastard in Westeros. He stays. But poor Dany, white hair & purple eyes. She's doomed. And they send Dany off with either Tyrion or Oberyn to be safeguarded for a few months (by whom???) before they take Dany to Dragonstone and pair her as a "newborn" with her brother Viserys. Willem Darry takes them overseas and her story goes from there.


    Three-headed Targaryen Dragon:
    1. Tyrion Lannister (one green eye, one "black" eye... or is it "deep purple"). Mr. Green Eye... he'll ride the Green Dragon.
    2. Jon Snow (grey eyes, so dark they appear "black"... of do they have some "purple"). Mr. "Snow"... he'll ride the Cream Dragon.
    3. Daenerys Targaryen. Our story's heroine... she'll ride the Black Dragon.

    Tyrion via Rhaegar/Joanna.
    Jon/Dany via Rhaegar/Lyanna.

    BOOM goes the dynamite.

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    So, none of the Three-headed Targaryen have 100% Targaryen blood?

    Why does Jon seems "Starky" (dark hair), while his twin sister seems "Targaryen" (White hair). Another thing is how come Danny doesn't get burned by fire, but Jon does? Wouldn't they both posses this ability if they were twin?

    I personally don't buy the Tyrion being a Targaryen simply because if he wasn't his real son, Tywin would have killed him (I'm guessing he would have known that he didn't get his wife pregnant).


    Have you taken the time to read the theory I found while googling? The "ice dragon" theory. I think it would be absolutely awesome that the wall is just one big diversion (It's not there to seperate the White Walkers but to hide a dragon)
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    ^I actually did read that whole article. I absolutely love original theories - be right, or wrong, or tangible... I just like hearing new theories.
    (My mom actually believes that Arthur Dayne & Ashara Dayne are alive and hiding in Greystone!!! Ha. I don't see it, but I've told her I love the thought.)
    The only thing that doesn't work is that it basically eliminates the need for the people in Westeros/Essos to have any role of significance.

    Like... what's the point of an Arya or a Tyrion if it's just basically going to be Jon/WhiteWalkers vs. Dany/Dragons.
    Nah.
    I don't think it will be that way.


    I think a better story is for the Three-Headed Monster to all be battling the White Walkers:
    *Jon will lead the Beyond the Wall-ers, ???, against them. (using Warg power)
    *Dany will lead the Dragons against them.
    *Tyrion will lead the South, "the people", against them.

    Yes, I'm proposing that they all have "half-Targ" blood - my theory.
    And... it sure comes across best if all THREE of them are brothers/sisters with ONE common parent (Rhaegar).

    I believe it is stated that Daenerys (& a Targ) can still be burned.

    Pretty sure GRRM has even mentioned that her walk in Drogo's fire in GoT (Book1) was a special occurance.

    re: Tywin.
    Why would he "know" that the baby is or isn't his?
    A woman can still have sex with her husband (who she may no longer love) and also with another man (who she does love).
    Back in that day, people weren't exactly backtracking on calendars to dates of conception.

    Once Tyrion was born... Tywin wouldn't know if he was or was not the son.
    And with Cersei/Jaime knowing that it was a child from their mother... one would have to "assume"... for the sake of the children... that it was full pure Lannister blood.
    Parents still need to come across as good parents.

    re: "Jon" and "Dany".
    Well - to be honest - this is probably the least solid part of my theory.
    That's a good point about the "Starky hair"... not sure how that would pass through - though perhaps Stark genes are dominant. [It is worth noting that GRRM loved forming the "genealogy" used for the story.]
    I want them to be brother/sister.
    It just doesn't seem glorious enough for Dany to be the Aunt to Jon Snow. (since Dany would be sister to Rhaegar, then Jon would be her "nephew"... meh.)

    Them being twin-births seems like a more "wonderful" story... especially since the story is called "A song of Ice(Jon) and Fire(Dany)".

    The song IS Rhaegar's song (IIRC) and thus it would seem most wonderful for him to sing it to his newborn children.

    Most people associate that Ice=Jon, Fire=Dany.

    There doesn't seem to be a good place for Rhaegar to sing that song with direct regard to Dany... who, "by the known story", was born AFTER Rhaegar's death.
    Then again... maybe "the song", just means "Rhaegars story".


    I believe Dany has a prophecy in House of the Undying where she sees Lyanna holding Jon (named Aegon by them) and looking at Dany (who would have been born):
    http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1811

    The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads.".

    I like where it says "he appears to look at Dany".
    This could be interpreted several ways.
    One way is that she is one-head, that Aegon (be it, whichever you choose) is the 2nd, and that she must find the 3rd.
    Another way (that I prefer), is that the full scene INCLUDING the "look at Dany" part is fully from Tower of Joy and that the literal translation is that IN that Tower of Joy, Rhaegar says this while looking at baby Daenerys.

    Sort of a crack-pot theory... but I love it.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    ^
    Love this discussion.

    As for Arya, I'm curious about the trajectory of her story. She's being formed as a killer, thief, lier yet she still worgs thrue her direwolf so she still has Westeros on her mind. She's one of my favourite character and I'm quite curious about GRMM's plan about her.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Really great thread here. I tend not to get to much into the theories but have to say a lot of them on here make a lot of sense. Just wanted to recommend some extra reading for anyone who is interested in reading even more GoT history while we wait for book 6. Most of you are likely aware of all these books but thought I'd post anyway.

    Tales of Dunc and Egg is a series of novellas that tell the story of Sir Duncan the Tall and Aegon V. Many events that happen in these stories are referenced in the novels. Its also possible that these stories turn into a spinoff on HBO.
    The Hedge Knight
    The Sworn Sword
    The Mystery Knight

    The most recent novella I have read was "The Princess and The Queen or The Blacks and The Greens" was in the anthology called Dangerous Women. It tells the story of the Dance of Dragons which was the Targaryen civil war.

    Very much looking forward to reading "The Rogue Prince or The Kings Brother" later this week when its released too. I believe its about Prince Daemon Targaryen and the events leading up to the Targaryen civil war.

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