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Thread: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by tgraveline View Post
    Book 3 is considered the best by most because of the context and where the story goes.

    Just because he intended the story to be 3 books means nothing. Look at the WoT by Robert Jordan. Intended to be a trilogy. Ended up being 14 huge books.

    I think we'll learn more about the Targaryens later on and I think the characters from the early books to really focus on are that of Varys/Illirio (some think they are the same person).
    Well:
    1. I believe book 3 is actually the original book 2. In fact, the start of Book2 (CoK) was originally part of Book1 (GoT). If you do a bit of digging you'll see that the publisher wants book lengths to be a certain size. (<1000 pages).
    Anyways... I should clarify that for ASOIAF, the first 3 books all have good reveals... but I do believe the most key reveals are in Book1, with some in Book2 (mostly Bran's/Jojen's dreams & Dany's visions in HotU)

    2. Varys/Illyrio are definitely friends (at most, brothers)... but definitely NOT the same person.
    http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/twomen.html

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    Well:
    1. I believe book 3 is actually the original book 2. In fact, the start of Book2 (CoK) was originally part of Book1 (GoT). If you do a bit of digging you'll see that the publisher wants book lengths to be a certain size. (<1000 pages).
    Anyways... I should clarify that for ASOIAF, the first 3 books all have good reveals... but I do believe the most key reveals are in Book1, with some in Book2 (mostly Bran's/Jojen's dreams & Dany's visions in HotU)

    2. Varys/Illyrio are definitely friends (at most, brothers)... but definitely NOT the same person.
    http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/twomen.html
    IIRC, it is certainly Varys and Illyrio that Arya encounters in the catacombs beneath the Red Keep while she's hunting cats in GoT. And it's not an accident that Tyrion winds up in Illyrio's custody following the events of SoS.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    So should we refrain from talking about A Feast for Crows or Storm of Swords in this thread?
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Tony DeNiro View Post
    So should we refrain from talking about A Feast for Crows or Storm of Swords in this thread?
    No.
    You are welcome to talk about ANY part of the story (books) in this thread.
    Have at it.

    Got any theories?


    Here's one for discussion:
    Rhaenys Targaryen (firstborn daughter of Rhaegar/Elia Martell).
    Rhaegar's kid... or not?

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    I read a little question and answer thing by GRRM's editor recently (http://winteriscoming.net/2014/05/29...asonably-soon/ - follow the link in that post )and she had a couple of interesting tidbits.

    VOTES 176

    Question from: Guest
    Why did you believe it was a wise decision to cut the three major battles from ADWD?
    Answer from: Anne G.
    Yes, the battles. Structurally, it would have been nice to have them. But there were two severe and real limitations. First, there are only so many pages you can actually physically bind between covers, and less than a handful of binderies out there who are actually capable of handling the larger books. When we wrapped ADWD—minus the battles—it was 1513 pages in manuscript. To include the battles… Well, we’d physically not have been able to bind it. We would have had to split it into two books, which would have felt even less satisfying. And it would probably still not be published yet, as he would STILL be writing. So we had to make a call to get the best book possible out of what actually existed at the time, which is what we did. Despite the lack of the battles, I am still really happy with it. And I know a lot of other people were, too.
    - See more at: http://universe.suvudu.com/q-and-a/a...l#.U5DPhdq9KSM
    VOTES 14

    Question from: Guest
    Anne, although you're the envy of many a GRRM fan, do you ever wish you didn't have to edit the books so that you could be surprised by them all at once along with the rest of us?
    Answer from: Anne G.
    No. As above, he doesn’t tell me a lot. He feels I am most effective at my job if I am surprised along with everyone else. And it is easier to tell when he’s overplaying a hand and revealing things too early if you don’t actually know going in what will happen. That said, now that I’ve realized his three-fold revelation strategy, I see it in play almost every time. The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else. It’s a brilliant strategy, and highly effective.
    - See more at: http://universe.suvudu.com/q-and-a/a...l#.U5DPhdq9KSM
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    No.
    You are welcome to talk about ANY part of the story (books) in this thread.
    Have at it.

    Got any theories?


    Here's one for discussion:
    Rhaenys Targaryen (firstborn daughter of Rhaegar/Elia Martell).
    Rhaegar's kid... or not?
    Who else would be her father? She has the appearance of a Martell, and the Targaryen features are normally dominant in their children, but I've never heard anyone question her birth. What did you have in mind? There isn't a ton of information given on Elia Martell outside of her family history, Rhaegar choosing Lyanna over her at Harrenhal, and that she was sickly and weak.

    And I don't know man, I would hate to spoil something for you if it hasn't been covered in the show yet, and you haven't read into the 4th or 5th books. There's a possibility of another Targaryen, but his actual identity is still in question. Varys (and Illyrio) seems to believe in him, but outside of physical appearance and what a former lord and hand of the king say, there's been no real proof yet.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Tony DeNiro View Post
    Who else would be her father? She has the appearance of a Martell, and the Targaryen features are normally dominant in their children, but I've never heard anyone question her birth. What did you have in mind? There isn't a ton of information given on Elia Martell outside of her family history, Rhaegar choosing Lyanna over her at Harrenhal, and that she was sickly and weak.

    And I don't know man, I would hate to spoil something for you if it hasn't been covered in the show yet, and you haven't read into the 4th or 5th books. There's a possibility of another Targaryen, but his actual identity is still in question. Varys (and Illyrio) seems to believe in him, but outside of physical appearance and what a former lord and hand of the king say, there's been no real proof yet.
    1. re: "Questioning her birth".
    See, this is a problem... a reader might "expect" that a birth has to be questioned in the book for the bloodline to not be true to mother-father.
    Why?
    Why does GRRM have to give us explicit hints whether a son/daughter is true or not?
    We should be able to figure these out?

    He's actually spend so much time of the first book (GoT) talking about lineage, the lineage book, and Jon Arryn... we should know something was up.
    We've already been given SO many hints that SO many husband-wife combinations were not made simply in "happiness"... which means that people root out for a true love... and also that pregnant mothers (Cersei Lannister being the OBVIOUS one that GRRM so willingly give us) that are not carrying the husband's seed.

    Don't forget Lord Arryn's dying words.
    I don't think it just extended to the Lannister twins' kids.
    I think it goes much deeper.

    For example... Elia Martell - as a mother.
    I believe (here comes Pengwin shocker #1) that NEITHER of Elia Martell's kids were from Rhaegar.
    I believe... that Rhaegar/Elia were simply a "fit" for households... and that even Rhaeger and Elia were under an "understanding" that they did not need to love each other and did not need to create spawn.

    However, I do believe that Elia Martell had a "true love".
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Elia_Martell
    And I believe that he, her lover, is the most enraged character in ASOIAF about the death of Elia and her two children.
    (For further great reading - note that the Martell children were sent off looking for spouses together, even going to Casterly Rock to find out if the Lannisters would match up with the Martells. Turns out, Rhaegar was a better "mask husband" for Elia, IMO.)
    They were very, very close.

    And this leads to

    2. "Another Targaryen".
    Oh, yes, lil' Aegon... supposedly "stolen at birth" and not really killed at the Sack of King's Landing.
    I'm actually of the opinion that GRRM worked this in later... and was not part of the master plan of his writing.
    I call "imposter" on Aegon VI being a real Targaryen.
    Now... if only there was a way to explain the subtle "Purple" in his eyes... hmmm... (and yes, I have a theory for that too).

    You are not spoiling it for me.
    It is impossible these days... to do a little research on ASOIAF/GoT without getting more than one has asked for.
    I've resolved to just researching all of it!


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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    wc17:
    Thanks for quote on this:

    No. As above, he doesn’t tell me a lot. He feels I am most effective at my job if I am surprised along with everyone else. And it is easier to tell when he’s overplaying a hand and revealing things too early if you don’t actually know going in what will happen. That said, now that I’ve realized his three-fold revelation strategy, I see it in play almost every time. The first, subtle hint for the really astute readers, followed later by the more blatant hint for the less attentive, followed by just spelling it out for everyone else. It’s a brilliant strategy, and highly effective.


    If this is true... pretty awesome.
    I absolutely LOVE to guess about theories.

    For example,
    The most obvious being Jon Snow.
    Starting with subtle hints about Lyanna... Robert not getting to marry her... and his sadness that he could only kill Rhaegar once.
    That's the subtle hint.(dropped early... in the first few chapters of Game of Thrones... Book 1).
    In truth - the earliest somebody could have formed a "R+L" theory would be after that text... and then Eddard calling Jon "his blood"... should quickly sew it up... for the early-theorist.

    Then the Tourney of Harrenhall events.
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...y_at_Harrenhal
    More blatant hint (dropped later... that story being release in A Storm of Swords... Book 3).

    And I'm sure Howland Reed is alive... and will be introduced later... for...
    The spelling out. (Book ?)


    Yes, yes, yes.

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    SPOILER ALERT - don't read if you haven't read ALL the books and don't want to be spoiled.

    I was wrong with every prediction I came up with while reading the book (which is why I freaking LOVE this series - so unpredictable), so this very likely won't pan out:

    I think the end game will be Daenerys/Prince Aegon uniting Westeros to battle against the Others who will overrun the Night's Watch now that Snow is dead.

    How awesome would that be for a grand finale to the series!?!?

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    Alright man sounds good, I'm all in then.

    When you brought up Rhaenys not being Rhaegar's daughter, Oberyn is who I first thought you were talking about. But I don't know, the Martell's don't really have a history of incest or at least it's never mentioned. I also haven't read too much into Oberyn's outrage over Elia and her children's murder....things are different in Dorne - bastards are treated differently there - which makes me think family units just tend to be a little closer.

    As for Aegon, I'm leaning towards imposter as well. Daenerys has been played up for so long, and then some punk kid sweeps in and invades Westeros while Dany is still half a world away and unable to do anything really. It's been established that trading galleys going from Westeros to the east can take years to return home....so Westeros to Slaver's Bay would have to be at least 6 months you would think....by then Aegon is either sitting the Iron Throne or dead and his part in the story is finished, rendering either him or Dany pointless to the story.
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    I just can't buy that Jon Snow is dead.....I CAN'T! Thoros of Myr has shown that a Red Priest(ess) can revive the dead. Both Dondarrion and Catelyn have been brought back to life by him. There just so happens to be a Red Priestess at the wall.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fast Tony DeNiro View Post
    I just can't buy that Jon Snow is dead.....I CAN'T! Thoros of Myr has shown that a Red Priest(ess) can revive the dead. Both Dondarrion and Catelyn have been brought back to life by him. There just so happens to be a Red Priestess at the wall.
    Not to mention, he could have warged into Ghost or someone else. Also, Melisandre has been good at hiding identities like rattleshirt/king beyond the wall. I think there are too many options for Jon Snow to not be around in some form.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    SPOILER ALERT - don't read if you haven't read ALL the books and don't want to be spoiled.

    I was wrong with every prediction I came up with while reading the book (which is why I freaking LOVE this series - so unpredictable), so this very likely won't pan out:

    I think the end game will be Daenerys/Prince Aegon uniting Westeros to battle against the Others who will overrun the Night's Watch now that Snow is dead.

    How awesome would that be for a grand finale to the series!?!?

    I seriously doubt that Jon is dead. I expect he'll be brought back by the Red Woman. I don't think this whole subplot of Jon actually being a Targaryen by birth would just be rendered moot with his death.

    I've thought from the beginning that Daenerys, Tyrion, and Jon Snow will be the three dragonriders and I'm still pretty much going with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgraveline View Post
    Not to mention, he could have warged into Ghost or someone else. Also, Melisandre has been good at hiding identities like rattleshirt/king beyond the wall. I think there are too many options for Jon Snow to not be around in some form.
    Ah ya, forgot about that. Especially after the seemingly pointless prologue chapter about Varamyr Sixskins and how wargs can live on after "dying". I wonder if Jon Snow's death can get him in touch with Bran now that he's begun his new life as a green seer.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    re: Snow dead. Meh.
    GRRM is so clever, he'll be able to revive Snow as he pleases.
    Don't forget... you can "wake a sleeping dragon".

    Back to Rhaegar. (the most "key" character in the whole story, not Dany, not Snow... Rhaegar yes - and I so much as predict that when it is all over, GRRM will say Rhaeger was his favourite character - generally speaking)

    From wiki's reference to Feast for Crows:
    Prince Rhaegar was King Aerys II and Queen Rhaella's first-born son. He was born in the year 259AC, on the same day that the Tragedy at Summerhall took place.
    If you then click Tragedy at Summerhall:
    A great fire broke out in the castle in 259AC, which was a serious blow to House Targaryen. The fire left the castle ruined and presumably resulted in the death of King Aegon V Targaryen, his eldest son and heir, Prince Duncan the Small, and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Ser Duncan the Tall.[4] It is sometimes blamed on one of the many Targaryen attempts to bring dragons back by hatching ancient dragon eggs.
    Prince Rhaegar Targaryen was born at Summerhall[5] on the day of the tragedy.[6] The crown prince grew up with a complex fascination for the ruins. Here he was happiest, yet also saddened by the memory of the tragedy.[7] He liked to visit by himself and sleep in the ruined hall of Summerhall beneath the moon and the stars. Maester Aemon thought Rhaegar's birth was associated with the prince that was promised, but Rhaegar later thought the legend was associated with his own son, Aegon Targaryen.[6]

    Now... I think the "history" here that is set-up by GRRM is important.
    Rhaegar was born the day that Aegon V, Duncan the Small, and Duncan the tall died.
    For those that don't know... Aegon V is a very key character in Westeros.
    Aegon V may have been the FIRST of the Targaryen bloodline to (this is important) "marry for love".
    ***For those that do not know, GRRM has written several "Dunk" and "Egg" novellas... and thus GRRM has a fondness for the role they play in this overall story.***

    After his father Maekar I's death, it was unclear who should be king since two of Aegon's older brothers had died before his father. Daeron left a feeble-witted daughter and Aerion a minor son, so the Great Council was called to choose the king. Aegon's brother Aemon, a maester, was offered the crown, but refused, stating it should be given to Aegon. Aemon then joined the Night's Watch to prevent any plots from developing whereby he would be used against his brother.
    Aegon married for love and allowed his sons to do the same, to the sorrow of the kingdom.[7]


    Also note the tie to Aemon from Aegon.

    So here, look at all this stuff combined.
    Rhaegar seeks to follow his heart and be with one he loves (Lyanna).
    He does this as the Targaryen born on the day his grandfather Aegon perished in "fires" of Summerhall.
    On top of this, it stats that Aegon V had "large eyes, deep and dark purple".

    Nothing GRRM writes is an accident. (Remember this).

    Rhaegar's eyes... "dark lilac eyes".

    Now... the purple eyes isn't uncommon among Targaryens... but I do believe that certain "darkness" to them identifies them (by GRRM) as a little more "good"... than other Targs.
    But... the more interesting part is this bond, that Aegon V and his grandson Rhaegar both chased their "true love".

    From here, you could imagine that Rhaegar would love to have a son.
    And... if you were Rhaegar... and you had a son... you would name him... _______.

    Of course.
    Now here is where my grandest theory goes into uncharted territory.
    GRRM has already set the story with a son for Rhaegar (via Elia, who he was "fond of", but didn't necessarily love).

    This baby, Aegon VI, was just a baby at the Sack of King's Landing.
    By "the (early) story", when the Lannisters (& Gregor) sacked KL, they murdered Rhaegar's daughter (Rhaenys, the one that "looks like a Martell"... c'mon now!!!... think here...) and then finds baby Aegon and Elia. Gregor smashes in the supposed Aegon VI's baby head... then rapes Elia Martell and kills her. Gruesome.
    The books reveal later that Aegon is still alive.

    Ah - so here is where I believe most reader's will look and now see:
    *Daenerys Targaryen (1)
    *Jon Snow/Targaryen (2)
    *Aegon VI Taragaryen (3)

    There's your 3-headed dragon right?
    Right?

    I say no.
    Too sloppy.
    As the story would set up, Aegon VI being second born to Rhaegar would be heir to the throne... better position than Daenerys (3rd born of Jaeherys, Rhaegar's father).
    And Jon Snow (as Rhaegar's 3rd born) is... Dany's nephew.

    Daenerys is Jon Snow's uncle.

    Is this really an interesting family connection?
    Hell no... and if this is a man's defining work... he wants it to be the ultimate story.
    3 Targaryen's... 2 of the 3 original siblings of Rhaegar + one spawn.

    No.
    Again, it's sloppy.

    Let me cut to the most critical vision in the books.
    Daenerys in the House of the Undying.

    And it is this vision that I believe is most critical:
    A room where a silver-haired man (presumably Rhaegar Targaryen) names his son Aegon, says the child is "the prince that was promised", then plays a harp.

    Well, GRRM knows damn well we are not going to question this.
    Rhaegar has a son named Aegon... his 2nd born.
    And with the "prince that was promised" line... GRRM can set us up for the Aegon VI story overseas.

    Oh GRRM, you are trying to fool me into wrong thinking.

    This is where Pengwin's Theory (so I've decided it shall be called), zags (while others have zigged).

    The original Aegon VI was not the seed of Rhaegar/Elia Martell. [As I believe, Rhaegar had an understanding with Elia on their marriage, but no - it was not love, nor did they... cozy up.]
    That baby (& Rhaenys) was the seed of Oberyn/Elia Martell. As just a young baby, it was swapped out in a ploy... and where it goes from there is not important.
    (But the whole killing of Oberyn's children with Elia & his sister leads him an incredible strong hatred of Gregor - that he has waited ages to repay... and we know that story).

    Anyways, Rhaegar does have his son with the one he loves... Lyanna.
    They have the child and he wishes to name it Aegon. And so it is. HIS Aegon.
    Except we know the story with Rhaegar... he is forced to retun to battle, leaving the three of his most noble Kingsguard to guard the Tower of Joy in the south of Dorne with Lyanna inside.
    (And why are they in Dorne country anyways, you ask?... because Rhaegar & Elia Martell... and Oberyn... had an understanding.]

    [Now, everybody who has done some digging and has half a brain is on board with R+L=J... yes. OK. So let's fast forward & then come back.]

    Eventually, at the Tower of Joy, Eddard shows up to rescue his sister, Lyanna.
    We knows she tells him something... ending with "Promise me, Ned".
    There is a baby there... dark grey eyes (Lyanna has grey eyes, Rhaegar has dark purple eyes... combination, oh yes).
    That baby's name... is Aegon... but of course, you can't have a Stark with a name like Aegon.
    Ay-gon.
    A-jon.
    Jon.

    But here comes my huge theory...
    "There must be one more".

    If the vision was of Rhaegar... and he says "there must be one more", then perhaps there wasn't just one baby.

    Rhaeger and Lyanna had two babies: Aegon (renamed "Jon Snow") & Daenerys (Stormborn - Born in the Stormlands) Targaryen. (283AC)
    This was Rhaegar's 2nd & 3rd children... the first being... Tyrion Lannister (274 AC), seed of Rhaegar (age 14, born 259AC) and Joanna Lannister - and cause of Tywin/Aerys feud.


    ***As for Rhaegar, he was very "bookish" until one day where he magically decided to become a knight... and told such to Willem Darry. The real reason for his want to become a knight was to travel for Tournaments back to Casterly Rock to see his son, Tyrion - who would also become "bookish"... like his father Rhaegar.***

    Tyrion has been aware that Rhaegar was his father his whole life - and also informed that the Others (White Walkers) would be coming some day and that he would need to save Westeros.

    At the age of 9 (283AC) he snuck Daenerys out of the Tower of Joy, whose white hair & purple eyes could not have been hidden in Westeros.
    Like himself, the boy - Jon Snow, had eyes/hair that would allow him to be a misfit son in Westeros.

    Tyrion delivered Daenerys, via Barristan Selmy, to Willem Darry on Dragonstone at the age of 9 months. (284 AC)

    On Dragonstone, Viserys, who was still a young boy, was told on Dragonstone that 9mo old Dany was his "newborn" baby sister.
    In the books, it is revealed that Eddard Stark, Selmy, and Tyrion Lannister all oppose the killing of young children.
    Tyrion acts as the watchful angel to Jon Stark & Daenerys... plotting throughout the story to create wars/battles to have the slime of Westeros kill each other off.

    In the end, the three spawn of Rhaegar (T, J, D) shall fight upon the three Dragon backs (as the "three headed dragon") against the White Walkers.
    The END.
    (Pengwin's Theory)


    Ah - now I dare you to tell me you aren't intrigued by that story?!
    So why does Ned only have the one, Jon?

    More tomorrow.

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