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Thread: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

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    Exclamation asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    After watching the first 3 seasons on TV and hearing recommendations on how good the books are... I decided to make the transition.
    The books... OMG... the books.

    As a "TV Viewer", I must say - there is simply NO WAY that the "TV Viewers" of GoT have any idea towards the grand depth of this story, it's characters - and the amount of layers to the general themes of the show.
    In other words - to the TV folk - my gosh you have no idea how deep, deep, deep this story goes.

    The last few days I've been taking a peak around the ASOIAF website.
    I tracked the Targaryen lineage ALL-THE-WAY back... reading up on every. single. member. of the house.
    Believe it or not, I find this (review of family lineage/history) incredibly valuable to predicting the direction of the show and creating theories.

    I have several DEEP theories myself that... (I'm proud to say)... don't seem commonly considered.
    But, for fear of being a NOOB on the general ASOIAF chat site, I decided to start a thread among our own little fantasy hockey society to discuss.


    RULES:
    1. In this thread, it is acceptable to talk about EVERYTHING revealed in any books, shows, or George RR Martin (GRRM) interviews.
    2. For that reason, LEAVE THIS THREAD IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO HEAR ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW!!!


    Who wants to throw out some thoughts first?

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    How far are you in the books?
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by letangerang58 View Post
    How far are you in the books?
    Well - officially I'm only 100 pages into Book 2.
    But because I've seen the first 3 seasons on TV (first 2.5 books)... I'm actually treating my "first read" as a "re-read", where I'll read/pause/research on internet.
    I've spent tens of hours on the asoIaF websites researching EACH character & EACH location as they are linked.

    I'm most intrigued by the stories of the characters of Aerys II Kingsguard, specifically those guarding the Tower of Joy when Eddard + 6 arrived.
    I (my own theory) believe that too many readers have made up their mind of what happened with L & the blood in the tower.
    GRRM gives us just enough information to sway us down a path of thinking... but I believe he has a much, much, much deeper (& better) storyline to create from that event.

    I also have a small theory that perhaps the elder Starks are not intrinsically as "good" as we are led to believe.
    We (as a reader) have a deep tendency to empathize and connect with any point-of-view (POV) character.
    We are all... the POV character in our own story.

    But - a story can still be told from a person who is not intrinsically good.
    In Crime & Punishment (one of my favourite books), we follow the main character's story from his POV. But that character (RR) is a murderer. And yet from his POV we might empathize (too much) and justify his acts.
    In modern times, a good example is the show Mad Men. That's told mainly with Don Draper as the main character and his life. I'd bet most people would qualify Don Draper as "good"... but is he really?

    Along those lines, I'm now asking myself... are the elder Starks... good?
    Are we just led to believe that.
    I'd bet 99/100 readers would be too stubborn to consider the concept that... the Elder Starks are not "the good guys" in this story.

    North vs. South.
    Think about this.
    What is our preset line of thought on "who is good" and "who is bad"?

    Even moreso, tell me about a father that has 5 kids & an adopted child in a small village.
    There would have to be zero chance that he, his family, and his alliances are, in any form, anything but wonderful... right?

    I think GRRM could have 99.9% of his readers leaning (!!!) the wrong way.
    He has not struck me as a man that thrives on creating a straight-forward-to-solve story.
    I believe the depth of his vision with this work actually has most of us fooled.

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Such as that Jon Snow is the son of Liana Stark and Regar Targaryen? (Sorry if I misspelled any names. I listen to the audiobooks and that's one of the side affects of that medium. On the other hand though I can correctly pronounce everyone's names which is something readers can't do.)

    Also, I want to hear more about Howlan Reed. He and Eddard were the lone survivors of the Tower of Joy and (though it is never said for sure) he was also a mystery knight in King Went's tourney in Harrenhal. The one where Regar crowned Liana as the queen of love and beauty. This mystery knight which I believe is Howlan Reed made it to the final 3 but had proved his point so he dropped out of the lists. Also, if there is anyone who knows if Jon is a Targaryen it would be Howlan Reed.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Good man. So what awesomeness would you like to discuss? Which theories? Though, to be fair, you need to read further to get some more of these ideas fully understood.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    I think Howland Reed is a survivor - mostly because it allows for "the story" to be told in the future, if need be.
    GRRM thinks about this stuff.

    For example, when Brandon Stark & crew went to King's Landing to call on Rhaegar (for his role w/L)... they were imprisoned, but one of their group (Ethan Glover) was not killed.
    Wise, by GRRM, because Ethan Glover becomes the figure that can convey that story to Eddard Stark.
    Stories need "witnesses" for a story to be re-told TRUTHFULLY.
    This is another key component in the book.
    We should consider events where there is not a viable witness to any "story".
    It is important to consider that the stories people "know" in Westeros/Essos... may simply be ONE person's fabrication, passed on-and-on-and-on.

    Anyways - our first topic to discuss.
    I do not think Howland Reed was the "Mystery Knight".
    I think there is a better candidate for that "Mystery Knight"... which leads one person to be substantially impressed with this "Mystery Knight"... to set in motion... our key events.
    More on "Knight of the Laughing Tree":
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php..._Laughing_Tree
    Read this... and you might quickly decide on another person for that role:
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php..._Tree/Theories

    As an off-topic:
    I am very, very, very, VERY intrigued that Howland Reed has a daughter born in 283AC.
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Meera_Reed
    This is key year in the story... and I believe it is well-worth re-reading everything from anybody born in 283AC or 284AC.

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Wow, you guys are talking theories I haven't thought about in awhile.

    Do you guys think Benjen Stark is Coldhands? So many people bring that one up, but I feel like Bran would have noticed as he knew his uncle.

    Now, I don't want to spoil it, but I can't wait for you to finish book 5. The theories popping up at the end of that one, is the one I really want to figure out.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    re: Coldhands... that one I don't have any theories on... yet.
    I suppose once I actually read it - I may have.
    I just read a few theories... which make sense.

    But... to be honest... I don't think that character has a significant contribution to the overall direction of the story - other than to move them along with a slight bit of extra gained knowledge.

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    One of the things that you get out of reading the books which is sorely lacking in the show are the not-so-subtle variations in tone. Some things in the books are very funny. Arya's chapters are particularly enjoyable not just because her situation is so dire, but being a young child, her outlook on the world can be humorous.

    Tyrion's conversations with some characters. particularly those that he doesn't respect, can be hilarious. The scene where Lady Olenna interrogates Sansa about Joffrey while her fool is performing "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" for the dinner guests is a riot.

    There's no humor or really any color at all in the series, it's a flat monotone.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    I'm not sure I agree with that. I see lots of humor in the show. Maybe that's because I've read the books and recall the undertones seamlessly.

    But seriously, finish book five so we can talk about that. I know people say book 3 is the best, which is probably true, but book 5 has the most actual fantasy in it.
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    re: Book 3/Book 5.
    Well, I suppose for pure "fantasy enjoyment", those might be considered the best books... by some.

    But with stories... an author is going to set-up his story in the first book (or two).
    And he'll want the reader to have a deep knowledge of the key characters, so they will be described in the first book (or two).

    After those first two books, GRRM has created so many "back-stories" and "histories"... well (in my opinion)... all of those back-stories and histories create the need for so many more books.
    And as GRRM writes, he does create & explore other branches of his world - but I do believe that branches not deeply discussed in the first two books are... sort of insignificant in the grand scheme.
    The story was originally intended only as a trilogy of books. Note that.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5439807.html
    According to Groell, she and Martin had gone back and forth on how many books should be in the series, which was originally intended to be a trilogy.

    From what I heard about Martin's formulation of this story - he had originally intended as a much shorter overall story (first two books + end)... and then it grew.
    (Fantasy Writers love THREEs... must be a Father/Son/Spirit sort of thing... or Beginning/Middle/End. Of course with LOTR & Star Wars - who doesn't do "three" anymore!?!)

    So... families like the Martells and Greyjoys... and even this "Aegon VI" that I'm reading about... or Coldhands...
    I don't think these are key contributors.
    [This said, I do believe GRRM would have worked Oberyn Martell vs. Gregor into the 2nd book... if he had maintained a 3-book trilogy for the full story. A semi-important relationship, IMO. Rhaegar/EliaM/OberynM v. Cersei/Jaime/Tywin/Gregor]

    Anyways - I'm more focused on discussing theories in the grand scheme.
    On Martin's front-end of his story development is family genealogy & maps.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire
    When Martin was between Hollywood projects in the summer of 1991, he started writing a new science fiction novel called Avalon. After three chapters, he had a vivid idea of a boy seeing a man's beheading and finding direwolves in the snow, which would eventually become the first non-prologue chapter of A Game of Thrones.[19] Putting Avalon aside, Martin finished this chapter in a few days and grew certain that it was part of a longer story.[20] After a few more chapters, Martin perceived his new book as a fantasy story[20] and started making maps and genealogies.

    I think those two things are very important to the story - especially genealogy - and much farther than just Jon Snow.

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    I've read 'em all already. I started the series in 2001 or so. I've read the first three twice.
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    RW: Tarasenko, Drouin (LW), Pastrnak, Nyquist (LW)
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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    I think Howland Reed is a survivor - mostly because it allows for "the story" to be told in the future, if need be.
    GRRM thinks about this stuff.

    For example, when Brandon Stark & crew went to King's Landing to call on Rhaegar (for his role w/L)... they were imprisoned, but one of their group (Ethan Glover) was not killed.
    Wise, by GRRM, because Ethan Glover becomes the figure that can convey that story to Eddard Stark.
    Stories need "witnesses" for a story to be re-told TRUTHFULLY.
    This is another key component in the book.
    We should consider events where there is not a viable witness to any "story".
    It is important to consider that the stories people "know" in Westeros/Essos... may simply be ONE person's fabrication, passed on-and-on-and-on.

    Anyways - our first topic to discuss.
    I do not think Howland Reed was the "Mystery Knight".
    I think there is a better candidate for that "Mystery Knight"... which leads one person to be substantially impressed with this "Mystery Knight"... to set in motion... our key events.
    More on "Knight of the Laughing Tree":
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php..._Laughing_Tree
    Read this... and you might quickly decide on another person for that role:
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php..._Tree/Theories

    As an off-topic:
    I am very, very, very, VERY intrigued that Howland Reed has a daughter born in 283AC.
    http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Meera_Reed
    This is key year in the story... and I believe it is well-worth re-reading everything from anybody born in 283AC or 284AC.
    Good points on the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Seems like Lyanna would be a more likely candidate for that role than Howland Reed.
    Fantrax - Salary cap dynasty - cap hit - H2H each category
    Start: 2C, 2LW, 2RW, 4D, 2UTIL, 2G, 6 Bench, 4IR
    Cats: G, A, +/-, PIM, STG, STA, SOG, FOW, GWG, Hits, BLK, W, GAA, Saves, SV%, SO

    C: Getzlaf, Turris, Eakin, ____
    LW: Kunitz, MacArthur, Pacioretty, ____
    RW: Little (C), Tarasenko, Eriksson (LW)
    D: Pietrangelo, JJ, Streit, Brodie, Benn, ____
    G: Lundqvist, Bishop, Holtby

    Farm: Grigorenko, H Lindholm, Faksa, Collberg, Grimaldi, Lee, K Hayes, G Carey, Schmaltz
    G: Grubauer, Gudlevskis


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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Quote Originally Posted by letangerang58 View Post
    Good points on the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Seems like Lyanna would be a more likely candidate for that role than Howland Reed.
    Yes.
    And... I believe GRRM includes the text about the "Booming Voice" to throw us off.

    1) If you actually ask a girl to do a "Deep Voice", like a man, they can't really pull it off at normal volume.
    But just have a woman do a "Booming Voice"... I mean LOUD and SUPER DEEP... it may sound silly to you (because you know it's a girl)... but it will sound as close to masculine as a girl can sound.
    In fact, for a man or woman to do the "Booming Voice"... it will sound similar. You sort of have to pull your chin down into your neck and it removes that natural sound of one's voice, feminine or masculine.

    On top of this:
    2) The equipment is "mismatched". Women have much different bodies, longer legs, shorter torso. Thus, she might need leg-protectors of a young man... but perhaps the chest protection of... a chubby boy. (?)

    3) The shield is the logo of a godswood tree - and we know the Winterfell tree is very key in the story.

    4) There is enough mention of the Reed children being "shocked" that Bran hasn't heard the story a million times. I mean... if it was his Aunt... you'd think he'd have been told that story so many times... but surely it pains Eddard to talk about Lyanna at ALL - and thus the reason why his kids haven't heard it.


    Wonderfully thought out here by GRRM, IMO - and I'm soooo fascinated by his knack for these sort of things.

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    Default Re: asoIaF/Game of Thrones Book Discussion: (Spoilers/Theories Welcome)

    Book 3 is considered the best by most because of the context and where the story goes.

    Just because he intended the story to be 3 books means nothing. Look at the WoT by Robert Jordan. Intended to be a trilogy. Ended up being 14 huge books.

    I think we'll learn more about the Targaryens later on and I think the characters from the early books to really focus on are that of Varys/Illirio (some think they are the same person).
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