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Thread: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

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    Default Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    I know it sounds dramatic... but since winning the cup 5 years ago, the Penguins haven't accomplished much despite their wealth of talent.

    They continue to be regular season warriors (like the Sharks), but there is something clearly lacking when the chips are down in the playoffs.

    I would attribute it to several factors:
    -The loss of Jordan Staal hurt... bad
    -They are aging... 5 years with virtually the same line-up and no infusion of young talent
    -Fleury continues to suck balls in the playoffs
    -Bylsma is no longer effective... he's not terrible, but every coach (other than Babcock) seems to have a shelf-life, and after a while, you lose it

    I'm convinced they need an overhaul, otherwise suffer the Sharks fate for the next half decade. What do you guys think?

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    They need solid depth on their 3rd and 4th lines to be able to be contenders in the playoffs. They sould start with that first. And maybe acquire a top RW to play with Crosby and Kunitz.

    I think trading Malkin (as some have suggested) would be a monumental mistake. Also Fleury wasn't great, but wasn't terrible in the 2nd round in my opinion. Only question is whether there's a real upgrade available on the market?

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    I definitely can see a coaching change taking place, and I think it happens sooner then later.

    I dont think I overhaul the roster too much though. I wouldnt mind seeing them trying to figure out a more permanent solution for the other side of Sid/Kunitz. I don't think Fleury is the problem.
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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    I wish the Leafs could have had the kind of failure the Pens enjoyed.

    I am trying to think of an 'overhaul' in recent years that has actually worked? I think the it is foolish to try to make big changes when you already have a pretty good team. To me the answer is tinkering by trying to get the next Mike Weaver, Nick Bonino or Reilly Smith.

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    The Rangers were a very good team. The better team. Somebody has to lose.

    Doesn't mean changes can't or shouldn't happen, but I don't think people are giving the Rangers enough credit for the way they played in the series. 3 goals in the final 3 games - somewhere Torterella is smiling and thinking - "they finally got it..."

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    Definitely they don't have the cap to add the much needed depth and they are really missing that good shut down guy. Come playoff time, seems like other teams start cutting off Crosby and Malkin, and the rest of the penguins are not stepping up. It would interesting to see if they try to free up cap via trading out guys like Letang, Neal, Fleury to get back more depth scoring or defense responsible players. I suppose the ultimate gag would be if Malkin was shipped out for a kings ransom package.
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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    The main reason teams fall is that teams that succeed have players outperforming their cost. (value over cost).
    Of course, teams then need to determine which players to pay - and which to let go.
    PIT, like CHI, has kept their core together and turns over their 3rd/4th liners.
    In general, I think CHI just has had better depth in their organization to pull this off.

    PIT was just one goal from moving on.
    A key player that was out of the line-up that has real, solid value... Pascal Dupuis.
    Do the Pens win this series if they can go Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis + Jokinen-Malkin-Neal?
    I say yes.
    Dupuis is worth more than one goal over the course of a playoff series.

    If I'm PIT... I actually hold my team together.
    Fleury actually played pretty well.
    I do think that they should consider going with a veteran back-up like Brian Elliott.
    And they've had better shutdown players in the past on their 3rd line.

    I (for one) don't believe that PIT is broken.
    They outshot NYR and Lundqvist simply stole this series.

    One goal from advancing... no Dupuis... minor, minor tweaks, IMO.

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dikoi View Post
    They need solid depth on their 3rd and 4th lines to be able to be contenders in the playoffs. They sould start with that first. And maybe acquire a top RW to play with Crosby and Kunitz.

    I think trading Malkin (as some have suggested) would be a monumental mistake. Also Fleury wasn't great, but wasn't terrible in the 2nd round in my opinion. Only question is whether there's a real upgrade available on the market?
    I agree, trading Malkin would be a huge mistake. I also agree Fleury wasn't bad. He wasn't great, but he wasn't bad. Anyone that expects him to play with the likes of Lundqvist, Price, Quick and Rask is sorely mistaken.

    That being said, I think they shouldn't extend Fleury's contract. He carries too much blame around Pittsburgh these days and I think he deserves a change of scenery.

    Bennett could still be the option at 1RW if he could manage to stay healthy and take advantage of the opportunity.

    The team just seems to be getting a bit stale and their bottom 6 is abysmal at best.

    In terms of FA's this summer, re-sign Jokinen, Sutter, Glass (for cheaper) and maybe Vitale. Let the rest walk (Orpik and a newly overpriced Niskanen included).

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    Quote Originally Posted by petegreg21 View Post
    I agree, trading Malkin would be a huge mistake. I also agree Fleury wasn't bad. He wasn't great, but he wasn't bad. Anyone that expects him to play with the likes of Lundqvist, Price, Quick and Rask is sorely mistaken.

    That being said, I think they shouldn't extend Fleury's contract. He carries too much blame around Pittsburgh these days and I think he deserves a change of scenery.

    Bennett could still be the option at 1RW if he could manage to stay healthy and take advantage of the opportunity.

    The team just seems to be getting a bit stale and their bottom 6 is abysmal at best.

    In terms of FA's this summer, re-sign Jokinen, Sutter, Glass (for cheaper) and maybe Vitale. Let the rest walk (Orpik and a newly overpriced Niskanen included).

    Good post. I agree with the FA's as well, as far as who they should re-sign and let walk. They have plenty of good young D in the AHL who is more then ready to take that next step.
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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    Quote Originally Posted by reeveta View Post
    I am trying to think of an 'overhaul' in recent years that has actually worked?
    I think the Kings would be a good example of a successful overhaul. But I don't think the Pens are in need of an overhaul.

    I also agree Dupuis was a big loss for Pittsburgh, but that still doesn't solve their forwards depth issues. Stempniak and Goc were good short term additions, but if they can get an established stud winger to play with Crosby, they can move Dupuis down the lineup as well. That would be a solid upgrade.

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dikoi View Post
    but if they can get an established stud winger to play with Crosby, they can move Dupuis down the lineup as well. That would be a solid upgrade.
    Realistically, Dupuis is not a top 6 player, let alone 1st line with the best player in the world. The only thing that keeps him there is familiarity and speed. They should seek an upgrade ASAP and get him down to the 3rd line. Only problem is then you're playing 3.75M for a 3rd line winger.

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    Quote Originally Posted by reeveta View Post
    I am trying to think of an 'overhaul' in recent years that has actually worked? I think the it is foolish to try to make big changes when you already have a pretty good team.
    Yes - it's really a very good... very valid point.
    Teams that have touched the top and fallen off - nobody has climbed back with an "overhaul", to my knowledge.

    It's fun to say that a team SHOULD consider an overhaul... but yeah... who has actually pulled it off???

    LA turned over their team and rose to the top - but they weren't ELITE previously.


    I remember back in 2004, the Lightning were very strong and decided to move Brad Richards - they had a hard time returning to the top.
    Ottawa (2007) had some very solid performing teams for several years. I think they would have declined with or without Heatley, but they still didn't get a return on him to return to the top.
    Philly went to the cup in 2010 and stripped out lockerroom distractions M.Richards & Carter, but they haven't returned.

    I honestly can't think of a team that pulled off the major move and stayed at the top.
    Maybe Edmonton for two years post-Gretzky.
    That's the only team (last 30 years) that I can remember moving a MAJOR player and still staying great for a while.

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    Quote Originally Posted by petegreg21 View Post
    Realistically, Dupuis is not a top 6 player, let alone 1st line with the best player in the world. The only thing that keeps him there is familiarity and speed. They should seek an upgrade ASAP and get him down to the 3rd line. Only problem is then you're playing 3.75M for a 3rd line winger.
    No, Dupuis is not a "top 6 NHL player", I agree.
    Also - Chris Kunitz is not a "top line NHL player".
    Does it matter?

    If you get a guy that meshes well with Crosby... for $4m... then it's good value.
    Dupuis (& Kunitz) mesh very, very well with Crosby.
    There are some player in the NHL that are simply "meh" and you pair them with an elite player and they can be incredible.
    Dupuis is one. Don't sell him short. He fits there. (I spent time closely watching Dupuis in Atlanta. When PIT got him in the Hossa trade, I remember stating what a very, very solid pick-up that was by PIT).

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    No, Dupuis is not a "top 6 NHL player", I agree.
    Also - Chris Kunitz is not a "top line NHL player".
    Does it matter?

    If you get a guy that meshes well with Crosby... for $4m... then it's good value.
    I'm inclined to agree, though Kunitz had substantial experience with Getzlaf and Perry if I'm not mistaken so he seems to find his way on top lines more often than not, despite not being able to create offence by himself.

    Dupuis is very good value for what he gives the Pens, especially when you look at the 59 points he put up a few years ago. Personally, I think Crosby can play with just about anyone who is an above average skater and has decent hands and IQ, hence my mention of Bennett earlier. Dupuis is valuable, but I think theres many others who could fill his role.

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    Default Re: Penguins - Do they need an overhaul?

    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    I know it sounds dramatic... but since winning the cup 5 years ago, the Penguins haven't accomplished much despite their wealth of talent.
    I think you kinda unintentionally hit the nail on the head here. The major pieces of the Pens roster is unchanged (except for Staal) since they won the cup. I don't think you overhaul a team like that, I think that's way overboard. Do they need to do a lot of tweaking? Absolutely. But I think they can build a cup contender by building around what they have.

    -Fleury expires this season, let him walk...they'll be some very interesting UFAs in 2015 to take a run at (Neimi, Schneider, Anderson, Bishop)
    -Dupuis and Kunitz are nothing special but the Pens have them signed at a good price for another 3-4 years (around 3.75 apiece), Neal can be a force, he needs to stay healthy for a full season
    -take a page from what teams like Montreal, Boston, Detroit, etc are doing with their 4th lines and add cheap, hard working depth...these teams are getting a great return on the $4-5mil they're spending on their 4th lines
    -fill in the gaps with proven winners and high quality vets looking to win a cup (Iginla, Jagr, Boyle, etc)...short contracts for a year or two
    -continue to acquire draft picks and prospects (for example Pouliot will be allow them to replace Letang in a few years), they need a steady stream of cheap prospects who can step up and provide injury relief and 3rd/4th line support

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