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Thread: Trading for Duchene

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    How is it a moot point? How many times does it need to happen before you people wake up and pay attention? Enough already.
    The magic number tends to be 3 years +/- 1, that's how long it takes the average Russian to bolt back to the KHL if they don't have make it in the NHL right away (i.e. they're getting 3rd/4th line duties, limited ice time and PP time, healthy scratches, demoted to minors, etc). With a NA player, they don't have the option to go make millions in another league, if they want to play professional hockey for a career they need to tough it out in the NHL trenches and fight to earn their spot. Now I'm not saying this happens to Yakupov, I think there's a pretty good chance he bounces back from last year, but if he doesn't or if he suffers any additional major setbacks, he's as good as gone.

    So when I make trades, I prefer to keep players that will be playing in the NHL if possible, I find that helps my teams significantly. Sure Yakupov has more upside but how much? 5-10 pts more maybe? To me that's not worth the added risk, maybe to others it is. But these are the kind of questions you need to be asking in situations like this.
    My point wasn't that there isn't a risk (though I do think it's overblown), my point was that if Yakupov does hit stride he's going to stay in the NHL. You said yourself that those who leave are the ones who can't tough it out and end up earning 3rd/4th line duties. My point was that if Yak ends up a 4th liner, you're probably not keeping him anyway so who cares what league he's playing in. The whole reason you'd choose Yak over Toffoli is their projected upside, knowing that if Yak hits his (or close) then you're getting the better player and a player who will be playing in the NHL. Therefore, unless you're set on holding a 4th liner into one of your keeper spots for 2-3+ seasons, the KHL factor is a moot point. See what I'm getting at?
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  2. #17
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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeP View Post
    My point wasn't that there isn't a risk (though I do think it's overblown), my point was that if Yakupov does hit stride he's going to stay in the NHL. You said yourself that those who leave are the ones who can't tough it out and end up earning 3rd/4th line duties. My point was that if Yak ends up a 4th liner, you're probably not keeping him anyway so who cares what league he's playing in. The whole reason you'd choose Yak over Toffoli is their projected upside, knowing that if Yak hits his (or close) then you're getting the better player and a player who will be playing in the NHL. Therefore, unless you're set on holding a 4th liner into one of your keeper spots for 2-3+ seasons, the KHL factor is a moot point. See what I'm getting at?
    No, sorry you're not making any sense. If Toffoli was a scrub then you might have a point because the potential advantage of what Yaks can do relative to him would be large enough to be worth the risk of losing the player completely.
    But I look at Toffoli and I see nothing but promise. In his first 72 NHL games he has 34 pts, that's close to 1/2 ppg playing 11-12 mins a night. Even more impressive he has 5 pts in 7 playoff games so far this season, and 2 of those were GWG! I look at that and I see a player carving out a spot for himself on the roster, when you play like that you make it impossible for the coach to not play you and you get more ice time. I look at Yakupov and I see the exact opposite pattern which is what makes next season so crucial for him. And even if he turns it around completely, gets into the top 6 and starts living up to all the expectations, what do you realistically think he's going to score? 60-65 pts for a couple years and maybe and 90 at his peak if all goes absolutely perfect for him? Toffoli isn't far off that, and I can easily see him going:

    50-55
    55-60
    70-75 (4th year 'pop')
    with a career peak just above ppg

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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    No, sorry you're not making any sense. If Toffoli was a scrub then you might have a point because the potential advantage of what Yaks can do relative to him would be large enough to be worth the risk of losing the player completely.
    But I look at Toffoli and I see nothing but promise. In his first 72 NHL games he has 34 pts, that's close to 1/2 ppg playing 11-12 mins a night. Even more impressive he has 5 pts in 7 playoff games so far this season, and 2 of those were GWG! I look at that and I see a player carving out a spot for himself on the roster, when you play like that you make it impossible for the coach to not play you and you get more ice time. I look at Yakupov and I see the exact opposite pattern which is what makes next season so crucial for him. And even if he turns it around completely, gets into the top 6 and starts living up to all the expectations, what do you realistically think he's going to score? 60-65 pts for a couple years and maybe and 90 at his peak if all goes absolutely perfect for him? Toffoli isn't far off that, and I can easily see him going:

    50-55
    55-60
    70-75 (4th year 'pop')
    with a career peak just above ppg
    I'm making perfect sense. The poster wanted to know who he should keep, I stated that, based on upside, I'd keep Yak. You disagree. That's ok. No need to keep this thread alive for another 9 pages going back and forth.

    For the OP, to summarize:
    I would keep Yak, McGoo would keep Toffoli. We both agree that in either case, you win the trade if you come out of it with Duchene.
    Best of luck, whichever direction you take.
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    D: Makar, Fox, Dobson, Byram, Dahlin, Ferraro, Michael Stone

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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeP View Post
    I'm making perfect sense. The poster wanted to know who he should keep, I stated that, based on upside, I'd keep Yak. You disagree. That's ok. No need to keep this thread alive for another 9 pages going back and forth.

    For the OP, to summarize:
    I would keep Yak, McGoo would keep Toffoli. We both agree that in either case, you win the trade if you come out of it with Duchene.
    Best of luck, whichever direction you take.
    It's not that you prefer Yaks over Toffoli, that's your opinion I have mine, it has nothing to do with that.

    You tried to argue that the KHL-factor was a 'moot-point' to the discussion which is ******ed, it's always a consideration, especially with young talented Russians. If you keep Yaks and he jumps to the KHL then you retain zero value from the trade. If you keep Toffoli and he doesn't hit his upside then no big deal, you still have a 60 pt forward on a strong team that can produce for you, I'd say that's pretty far from a moot point

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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    It's not that you prefer Yaks over Toffoli, that's your opinion I have mine, it has nothing to do with that.

    You tried to argue that the KHL-factor was a 'moot-point' to the discussion which is ******ed, it's always a consideration, especially with young talented Russians. If you keep Yaks and he jumps to the KHL then you retain zero value from the trade. If you keep Toffoli and he doesn't hit his upside then no big deal, you still have a 60 pt forward on a strong team that can produce for you, I'd say that's pretty far from a moot point
    I used to call people on the things like "******ed", "idiot", "*****", etc. over the internet too... but one day I woke up and realized I should start acting my age, I had, after all, just turned 15. The thing I find most ironic is that you troll these forums, regularly acting like a world class jerk, all the while trying to promote your own fantasy site. How's that working for you?

    I'm not going to waste my time reiterating my point yet again, as you don't seem to be able to grasp any sort of logic beyond "Russian bad! Canadian good!". At the end of the day I suppose I shouldn't have bothered at all and known better than to attempt to engage you in discussion. Like the old saying goes, never wrestle a pig, you both get covered in shit but the pig likes it.
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    F: A. Svechnikov, R. Thomas, N. Suzuki, Pastrnak, Boldy, J. Robertson, J. Hughes, Frost, Tolvanen, Drouin, Heinen, Gallagher, N. Ritchie, Wood, Poehling, Podkolzin

    D: Makar, Fox, Dobson, Byram, Dahlin, Ferraro, Michael Stone

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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeP View Post
    I'm not going to waste my time reiterating my point yet again, as you don't seem to be able to grasp any sort of logic beyond "Russian bad! Canadian good!". At the end of the day I suppose I shouldn't have bothered at all and known better than to attempt to engage you in discussion. Like the old saying goes, never wrestle a pig, you both get covered in shit but the pig likes it.
    LOL. I am on McGoo's side of this argument when it comes to the "Canadian/Russian" thing, but I do love the quote at the end of your post!

    Rylant

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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by SergeP View Post
    I used to call people on the things like "******ed", "idiot", "*****", etc. over the internet too... but one day I woke up and realized I should start acting my age, I had, after all, just turned 15. The thing I find most ironic is that you troll these forums, regularly acting like a world class jerk, all the while trying to promote your own fantasy site. How's that working for you?

    I'm not going to waste my time reiterating my point yet again, as you don't seem to be able to grasp any sort of logic beyond "Russian bad! Canadian good!". At the end of the day I suppose I shouldn't have bothered at all and known better than to attempt to engage you in discussion. Like the old saying goes, never wrestle a pig, you both get covered in shit but the pig likes it.
    Reiterate 'what' exactly? You've yet to make a point on the subject. -lol
    I mean you made a small point that was along the lines of 'different strokes for different folks' that I agreed with but that's not much of a point since that kind of basic risk vs reward question comes up anytime you compare two players from a fantasy perspective. But beyond that, you've still failed to address why the Spoiled Russian-fleeing-to-KHL factor is somehow moot. That's the part of your argument you've not supported at all.

    PS: Fantasy site is working out great, thanks for asking, I make enough to pay for the hosting and that's the only reason I do it.

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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    Not a final deal, but I think I can talk my buddy into it. All about upgrading final keeper spots for me. League and team in sig. He really likes Bonino, and Bonino does fairly well in our scoring. Over the full season he averaged 2.8 FP/g where Duchene averaged 3.7 FP/g. As an add in, were talking about Yakupov or Toffoli. Trade would likely allow me to keep the one I don't move. So final deal looks somewhere like

    Bonino + Toffoli/Yakupov

    For

    Duchene

    Which young guy would you rather give up?

    Thanks.
    if he is your buddy you should at least let him pick the one he wants

    the trade is pretty horrible for him to begin with the absolute least you can do as his friend, other than not make the deal, is to let him pick which player he wants

    if you are going to kick your buddy in the nuts you shouldn't come on here to ask if you should do it from the front or the back you should at least let him decide
     
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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by lucifer316 View Post
    if he is your buddy you should at least let him pick the one he wants

    the trade is pretty horrible for him to begin with the absolute least you can do as his friend, other than not make the deal, is to let him pick which player he wants

    if you are going to kick your buddy in the nuts you shouldn't come on here to ask if you should do it from the front or the back you should at least let him decide
    While I realize on name value this looks like a pretty terrible trade, production wise and in our scoring it's not that bad. He actually approached me about Bonino, I came back asking if we could add to get to Duchene, and he said he'd think about it for Bonino + Yak/Toffoli. In a 12 team keep 17 with our scoring, either combination outscored Duchene pretty heavily. Yes I still win (best player and all that) but it seems a few people are getting hung up on name value over production.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Part with Toffoli first, but honest I would just scramble to make this deal happen no matter what. Don't bargain too hard, just get it done using Yak or Toffoli - whoever he wants. You don't want him to change his mind later.

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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by rataylor22 View Post
    While I realize on name value this looks like a pretty terrible trade, production wise and in our scoring it's not that bad. He actually approached me about Bonino, I came back asking if we could add to get to Duchene, and he said he'd think about it for Bonino + Yak/Toffoli. In a 12 team keep 17 with our scoring, either combination outscored Duchene pretty heavily. Yes I still win (best player and all that) but it seems a few people are getting hung up on name value over production.
    did either player outscore Duchene individually, because unless there is a special rule in your league where he can use Bonino and Yak/Toffoli in the same roster spot at the same time the fact that the combination outscored Duchene is irrelevant

    i am curious why you are making this deal at all to be honest since the way you just explained it it is obvious that you are getting the worse end of the deal
     
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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Look at my team. I don't have room to keep all of them and he does. I can trade 2 for 1 and upgrade spots I can keep for lose then for nothing.

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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    look if you want to blow smoke up your own ass about how fair this trade is by all means go ahead and do so

    but you have been told by multiple people that it isn't fair and you should let him pick the player

    if you don't want to do that then don't that is your choice

    but don't for one minute think you can piss on our heads and tell us it is raining
     
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  14. #29
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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Quote Originally Posted by lucifer316 View Post

    but don't for one minute think you can piss on our heads and tell us it is raining
    'down my back' actually...from one of the greatest Westerns ever IMO, The Outlaw Josey Wales


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    Default Re: Trading for Duchene

    Lol. Like. I did ask for forum help but I didn't ask for yours lucifer. I'd really have no issue with you never responding to any of my posts from this point forward. In all honesty I'd prefer if you didn't. I really hold no value in your opinion. Actually I hold less than zero value in it.

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