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Thread: Proposal Thoughts

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiva Blaster View Post
    These are the posts I don't get......in what universe does a top 20-25 forward, a goalie prospect, and a throw-in like Zuccarello get you the #1 defenseman (by far) on the planet? I would be insulted by that offer. That could be enough to get Karlsson if you are playing with people that know absolutely nothing about fantasy hockey.
    Actually my suggestion was a top-10 scorer plus a goalie prospect and a throw-in. If you were insulted by THAT, how did you feel about the OP's initial proposal, which was only a top-25 scorer, plus the goalie prospect and TWO throw-ins, for the #1 defenseman (by far) AND another top-25 scorer and a prospect coming back? My suggestion was much closer to being even, and i don't think your extreme reaction was warranted. Benn and pavelski had 79 points, tied for 8th in the NHL. Kunitz and Vanek had 68 points, tied for 24th.
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime89 View Post
    I think I might stand pat. Point scorers are the bread and butter of our league with our assigned point value to our categories. I can say I won using no defense all year (excluding Byfuglien because of being a forward). Might be something I need to revisit in September when we declare our 17 + 5 keepers.

    Maybe going for a guy like Hedman will be the better route?
    Based on the signature, seems like your best bet. You have a pretty complete team based on those stat categories, no sense in losing a big chunk of it for 1 guy.
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  3. #18
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Chunkys_Choice View Post
    Actually my suggestion was a top-10 scorer plus a goalie prospect and a throw-in. If you were insulted by THAT, how did you feel about the OP's initial proposal, which was only a top-25 scorer, plus the goalie prospect and TWO throw-ins, for the #1 defenseman (by far) AND another top-25 scorer and a prospect coming back? My suggestion was much closer to being even, and i don't think your extreme reaction was warranted. Benn and pavelski had 79 points, tied for 8th in the NHL. Kunitz and Vanek had 68 points, tied for 24th.
    Karlsson is elite. You haven't included one elite player on the other side of the deal......only rookies or people that don't know what they are doing are going to trade a super-elite like Crosby or Karlsson (quality) for a bunch of non-elite options (quantity). The quality vs quantity thing when it comes to elite players has already been discussed in this thread.....unless you are in a joke of a league, the quantity for elite quality trade offers aren't going to accomplish anything but pissing off other managers. I'm sorry, but your suggestion is still nowhere near being a reasonable offer for the most elite dman on the planet.
    10 team, head-to-head, multi-cat, keep-12 keeper league. CATS: G,A,+/-,PPP,PIM,SOG,HITS BS,SHP, W,SV,SV%,GAA,SO Daily rosters of 6F, 4D, 2 Flex, 2G

    F: Crosby, Hall, Pacioretty, Hartnell, Neal, Nugent-Hopkins, Callahan, Dubinsky, Hossa, Huberdeau, Abdelkader, Bjugstad (IR)
    D: Karlsson, Hedman, Muzzin, Savard, Streit (IR)
    G: Lundqvist, Quick, Condon

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiva Blaster View Post
    Karlsson is elite. You haven't included one elite player on the other side of the deal......only rookies or people that don't know what they are doing are going to trade a super-elite like Crosby or Karlsson (quality) for a bunch of non-elite options (quantity). The quality vs quantity thing when it comes to elite players has already been discussed in this thread.....unless you are in a joke of a league, the quantity for elite quality trade offers aren't going to accomplish anything but pissing off other managers. I'm sorry, but your suggestion is still nowhere near being a reasonable offer for the most elite dman on the planet.
    Easy, boys. No need to get your panties in a bunch over this. Everyone's feedback is appreciated here. It's good to see things from all perspectives.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    I say add 15-20 points to a defenseman’s totals to make them equal to a forward. It is the easiest way to gauge their relevance. It’s a crude way, but effective. So Karlsson (70-80pt d-man) I would consider a 85-100pt player, to gauge a trade. Comparing apples to apples almost.
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  6. #21
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime89 View Post
    Easy, boys. No need to get your panties in a bunch over this. Everyone's feedback is appreciated here. It's good to see things from all perspectives.
    Oh, I'm easy I'm all about healthy, respectful discussion on the boards......no one's losing their cool in here. I agree that different perspectives are key, I was just rationally explaining why I feel his suggested offer is nowhere near Karlsson's value, it's all good
    10 team, head-to-head, multi-cat, keep-12 keeper league. CATS: G,A,+/-,PPP,PIM,SOG,HITS BS,SHP, W,SV,SV%,GAA,SO Daily rosters of 6F, 4D, 2 Flex, 2G

    F: Crosby, Hall, Pacioretty, Hartnell, Neal, Nugent-Hopkins, Callahan, Dubinsky, Hossa, Huberdeau, Abdelkader, Bjugstad (IR)
    D: Karlsson, Hedman, Muzzin, Savard, Streit (IR)
    G: Lundqvist, Quick, Condon

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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by 2014olympicgold View Post
    I say add 15-20 points to a defenseman’s totals to make them equal to a forward. It is the easiest way to gauge their relevance. It’s a crude way, but effective. So Karlsson (70-80pt d-man) I would consider a 85-100pt player, to gauge a trade. Comparing apples to apples almost.
    Do others do this too?

    That's an interesting idea.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiva Blaster View Post
    Oh, I'm easy I'm all about healthy, respectful discussion on the boards......no one's losing their cool in here. I agree that different perspectives are key, I was just rationally explaining why I feel his suggested offer is nowhere near Karlsson's value, it's all good
    You guys are all great and I'm all for the awesome discussion here at Dobber.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    I guess it was a "cool" sort of "insulted", haha. I love the conversation too, so it's all good. And I can see how benn or pavelski might not be enough for karlsson, but it's certainly better than lucic (assuming kunitz = vanek. And gibson, zuc and bennett were included in both my proposal and the OP's).
    10 team pts-only keeper league - keep 10 plus 10 from past/present farm. No bench: entire active roster counts. Goalies: 2 pts/win + 3/shutout. 82 adds / year. NHL playoffs count for separate prize.

    F: J Eichel, M Tkachuk, J Guentzel, E Pettersson, P Laine, R Thomas, C Kreider, M Boldy, J Kyrou, M Backlund, F Vatrano, N Niederreiter, R Rakell, M Marchment, M Domi
    D: A Fox, S Theodore, R Andersson, B Montour, S Durzi, D Keith
    G: F Andersen, S Knight, J Swayman
    IR: J Hughes, M Stone, M Grzelcyk, S Perunovich
    Farm: L Raymond, O Wahlstrom, S Skinner, C Addison, Y Chinakhov, J Perreault

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    I came back with the offer of :

    P. Kane + Kunitz

    For

    Karlsson + Bennett

    That's all the higher I'm going.

    I see the position scarcity; it's quite obvious. It'd be nice to move the production from the wing to defense but I don't want to break the bank to do so. In my league, the 4-year averages for P. Kane and Karlsson are both around 4 points. Throwing in Kunitz with his 4 ppg average over 4 seasons HAS to be enough to make the deal work.

    Again, I know roster makeup and value of position scarcity is important here, but I just feel like that's a lot to give up in a league where point scorers are the bread and butter.

    Karlsson is great, but if he's the Crosby of defense, why isn't he a top-3 pick in draft pools? Do people feel forwards are more consistent or do people conform and do the popular thing by drafting forwards? Where do guys like Kane and Kunitz go in draft pools?

    Food for thought.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime89 View Post
    I came back with the offer of :

    P. Kane + Kunitz

    For

    Karlsson + Bennett

    That's all the higher I'm going.

    I see the position scarcity; it's quite obvious. It'd be nice to move the production from the wing to defense but I don't want to break the bank to do so. In my league, the 4-year averages for P. Kane and Karlsson are both around 4 points. Throwing in Kunitz with his 4 ppg average over 4 seasons HAS to be enough to make the deal work.

    Again, I know roster makeup and value of position scarcity is important here, but I just feel like that's a lot to give up in a league where point scorers are the bread and butter.

    Karlsson is great, but if he's the Crosby of defense, why isn't he a top-3 pick in draft pools? Do people feel forwards are more consistent or do people conform and do the popular thing by drafting forwards? Where do guys like Kane and Kunitz go in draft pools?

    Food for thought.
    Karlsson is the Crosby of D, but still not a top 3-pick, because Ds (being Ds) have a ceiling in terms of upside. Their first job after all, is to defend, so no matter how elite they are, their upside is never going to be better than the super elite Forwards (Crosby, Malkin, Tavares, Stammer). This explains why, in a points pool, I would expect those 4 to go first, going forward. If SOGs and Hits are added, then Ovi enters the mix as well. Not to mention, if there are strong goalie cats, then Rask and Lundy are in it too (but likely not the top 3 in the regular season).

    The key to me is, though, that you always need to look at the difference between the player you select and the next best option at that position. The reason why you select Karlsson in the first round (late) or early 2nd round in pools, is because the difference between him and the next D is likely much larger than the difference between picking a 85 pt Forward in Rd 1 and an 80 pt Forward in Round 2.

    Typically, I would expect P Kane to be picked late in Round 1 OR early Round 2, Kunitz is likely a Rd.3 or a Rd.4 pick in a 12 - 15 player pool.
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  11. #26
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Patrick Kane maybe?

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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Stringer View Post
    Patrick Kane maybe?
    Yeah, that's who I changed the proposal to.

    Patrick Kane + Chris Kunitz

    for

    Erik Karlsson + Beau Bennett

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Karlsson and Kane are both first round picks, and kunitz is way better than bennett, so you are being more than generous here. If they say no, just walk away.
    10 team pts-only keeper league - keep 10 plus 10 from past/present farm. No bench: entire active roster counts. Goalies: 2 pts/win + 3/shutout. 82 adds / year. NHL playoffs count for separate prize.

    F: J Eichel, M Tkachuk, J Guentzel, E Pettersson, P Laine, R Thomas, C Kreider, M Boldy, J Kyrou, M Backlund, F Vatrano, N Niederreiter, R Rakell, M Marchment, M Domi
    D: A Fox, S Theodore, R Andersson, B Montour, S Durzi, D Keith
    G: F Andersen, S Knight, J Swayman
    IR: J Hughes, M Stone, M Grzelcyk, S Perunovich
    Farm: L Raymond, O Wahlstrom, S Skinner, C Addison, Y Chinakhov, J Perreault

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime89 View Post
    Yeah, that's who I changed the proposal to.

    Patrick Kane + Chris Kunitz

    for

    Erik Karlsson + Beau Bennett
    Sorry, I didn't realize there was a second page of responses.
    Makes me look like a dumbass...

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    Default Re: Proposal Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Stringer View Post
    Sorry, I didn't realize there was a second page of responses.
    Makes me look like a dumbass...
    All good, man! No harm, no foul! I knew you were only trying to help.

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