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Thread: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

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    Default Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    What should we expect?? I was expecting more from him this year for sure. Still only 24, but as someone brought up earlier, is he going to be great or just good. I'm seriously considering letting him go into the draft this coming season for Miller. His avg.'s in my points only league have been disappointing the last two years. 1.2 and 1.1 this year. Fleury avgs about 1.5 on my team so Miller would be a great replacement. Does he have Yandle, maybe even Subban upside, or is he just a bit below.

    - - - Updated - - -

    also I know many people advocate not carrying two goalies, but I feel I'll take the higher averages, but my main concern is upside. Is he worth holding on to/can he be much better, especially in St. Louis??
    10 Team keeper league
    (9F, 4D, 2G, 4 bench, 2 IR)
    H2H
    Goals-1, Assists-1, PPP-0.5, SHG=1, Hits-0.05, BS-0.05, Shots-0.05, Wins-2, Shutouts-2, Saves 0.01, Defenseman Pts-0.5

    Keep 6 (potentially 7 with a vote pending)

    2012/2013: 4th in reg season, 2nd in playoffs
    2013/2014: 1st (t) reg season, 4th in playoffs
    2014/2015: 1st reg season, 4th in playoffs
    2015/2016 7th reg season (third highest PF)

    Crosby, Malkin, Laine, Getzlaf, Radulov, Arvidsson, Rantanen, Bailey, W. Karlsson, Ducehene,Haula,
    Klingberg, Suter, Trouba, Ekblad, Provorov
    Holtby, Talbot, Varlamov

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    He's only 24 and already has two 51 point seasons on his resume. Yes, he definitely has Yandle upside (55-65) but not quite Subban (70). The Blues spread it around, and are tasked with playing stingy defense, but his prime years will consists of a few 55-60 pointers IMO. Oh, and if the Blues re-up Miller, I would keep him over Fleury for sure... he will be a beast as long as he's a Blue.
    8-GM / WK-H2H
    Forwards: G=2, A=1, PP/SH= +1, GWG= +2, Shootout G=1, HT= +1
    D-Men/Captain: G=3/A=2
    Goalies: W=3, OTL=1, SO= +2, SV= .10


    Start = 13F, 6D, 2G / Keep 44 (3G)
    Captain: Matthews
    (F): MacKinnon, Pasta, Marner, Rantanen, Malkin, Barkov, M.Tkachuk, W.Nylander, Pettersson, Gaudreau, Laine, Keller, Miller, B.Tkachuk, Stutzle, DeBrincat, L.Raymond, K.Johnson, Cozens, Quinn, Guenther, Kulich, Cooley
    (D): Makar, Dahlin, Q.Hughes, Ekblad, Rielly, Werenski, Letang, Jones, Chychrun,
    Seider, Edvinsson, Jiricek, Korchinski, Mintyukov, Ceulemans, Hutson
    (G): Shesterkin, Demko, Vejmelka

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    hmm I really wanna keep Fleury if he has a good playoff run too. Would you keep Miller over Pietrangelo? I'll be going for it next year. Got loads of picks, including an extra 2nd, 4th, 10th
    10 Team keeper league
    (9F, 4D, 2G, 4 bench, 2 IR)
    H2H
    Goals-1, Assists-1, PPP-0.5, SHG=1, Hits-0.05, BS-0.05, Shots-0.05, Wins-2, Shutouts-2, Saves 0.01, Defenseman Pts-0.5

    Keep 6 (potentially 7 with a vote pending)

    2012/2013: 4th in reg season, 2nd in playoffs
    2013/2014: 1st (t) reg season, 4th in playoffs
    2014/2015: 1st reg season, 4th in playoffs
    2015/2016 7th reg season (third highest PF)

    Crosby, Malkin, Laine, Getzlaf, Radulov, Arvidsson, Rantanen, Bailey, W. Karlsson, Ducehene,Haula,
    Klingberg, Suter, Trouba, Ekblad, Provorov
    Holtby, Talbot, Varlamov

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordyr77 View Post
    Would you keep Miller over Pietrangelo?
    That depends on the dynamics and habits of your league. Is a young 50-55 point DMan easier to redraft than a goalie with 35-40 wins and 6 shutouts? Which is more valuable to you? If Miller stays in St. Louis I like him A LOT moving forward.
    8-GM / WK-H2H
    Forwards: G=2, A=1, PP/SH= +1, GWG= +2, Shootout G=1, HT= +1
    D-Men/Captain: G=3/A=2
    Goalies: W=3, OTL=1, SO= +2, SV= .10


    Start = 13F, 6D, 2G / Keep 44 (3G)
    Captain: Matthews
    (F): MacKinnon, Pasta, Marner, Rantanen, Malkin, Barkov, M.Tkachuk, W.Nylander, Pettersson, Gaudreau, Laine, Keller, Miller, B.Tkachuk, Stutzle, DeBrincat, L.Raymond, K.Johnson, Cozens, Quinn, Guenther, Kulich, Cooley
    (D): Makar, Dahlin, Q.Hughes, Ekblad, Rielly, Werenski, Letang, Jones, Chychrun,
    Seider, Edvinsson, Jiricek, Korchinski, Mintyukov, Ceulemans, Hutson
    (G): Shesterkin, Demko, Vejmelka

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    AP is one of my favourite real-NHL defensemen, but I have to consistently show up to remind people that his all-around NHL value sometimes detracts from his "fantasy value".
    He's Lidstrom-like... but that also means he doesn't HIT, he doesn't PIM.

    In those leagues, it pulls his value down.
    He is also less of a candidate to join the rush because STL is a great team... they don't "need" him to join the rush the way Karlsson, Subban, and Yandle are sometimes "needed" to keep their teams in games.

    AP can just play his game, not force the offense, and STL will win.
    For those reasons, he can be a better overall defenseman... but may never eclipse 55pts.

    Still not a bad thing.
    In points-only fantasy hockey, I'd probably only draft Karlsson, Subban, Yandle, Buff, and Keith ahead of him.

    To be honest, Yandle has the same short-coming as AP though... in "fantasy"... doesn't PIM, doesn't HIT.


    For me:
    Crosby
    Malkin
    Kunitz... yes, Chris Kunitz
    Fleury
    Miller (if he re-signs with STL, otherwise I'd keep AP)

    In a 9F/4D/2G points-league, you need:
    Forwards to be incredible offensively
    Defense can be late-drafted to stock PIM
    Goalies should be bonafide #1 starters

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    AP is one of my favourite real-NHL defensemen, but I have to consistently show up to remind people that his all-around NHL value sometimes detracts from his "fantasy value".
    He's Lidstrom-like... but that also means he doesn't HIT, he doesn't PIM.

    In those leagues, it pulls his value down.
    He is also less of a candidate to join the rush because STL is a great team... they don't "need" him to join the rush the way Karlsson, Subban, and Yandle are sometimes "needed" to keep their teams in games.

    AP can just play his game, not force the offense, and STL will win.
    For those reasons, he can be a better overall defenseman... but may never eclipse 55pts.

    Still not a bad thing.
    In points-only fantasy hockey, I'd probably only draft Karlsson, Subban, Yandle, Buff, and Keith ahead of him.

    To be honest, Yandle has the same short-coming as AP though... in "fantasy"... doesn't PIM, doesn't HIT.


    For me:
    Crosby
    Malkin
    Kunitz... yes, Chris Kunitz
    Fleury
    Miller (if he re-signs with STL, otherwise I'd keep AP)

    In a 9F/4D/2G points-league, you need:
    Forwards to be incredible offensively
    Defense can be late-drafted to stock PIM
    Goalies should be bonafide #1 starters
    The hitting and PIMs are very good points, but AP also blocks a TON of shots for an elite dman, which helps to to compensate in multi-cat leagues. AP's deficiencies are easily made up for by rostering some Franson, Gudas types as depth dmen. I whole-heartedly agree that AP is more valuable in real life though, although he is still a very nice fantasy dman.
    10 team, head-to-head, multi-cat, keep-12 keeper league. CATS: G,A,+/-,PPP,PIM,SOG,HITS BS,SHP, W,SV,SV%,GAA,SO Daily rosters of 6F, 4D, 2 Flex, 2G

    F: Crosby, Hall, Pacioretty, Hartnell, Neal, Nugent-Hopkins, Callahan, Dubinsky, Hossa, Huberdeau, Abdelkader, Bjugstad (IR)
    D: Karlsson, Hedman, Muzzin, Savard, Streit (IR)
    G: Lundqvist, Quick, Condon

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    That's exactly what I've been feeling about AP. No doubt he is a top 3 all around defensemen, maybe even the best, but I think his fantasy value was slightly boosted by that. I like the idea of keeping Miller and Fleury, but I'm going to end up keeping Yandle over Kunitz for sure. I think the main focus for me is between Miller, Fleury and Pietro. I just have this weird feeling Kunitz is going to really slow down next year, so might be hard to convince me to keep him!! I think AP will probably cap out at 55 too, just the way St. Louis plays. If he was on Pittsburgh I think it'd be a different story and I wouldn't be having this debate. But I don't think he'll be a 55+ dman like I've envisioned, at least in St. Louis.
    10 Team keeper league
    (9F, 4D, 2G, 4 bench, 2 IR)
    H2H
    Goals-1, Assists-1, PPP-0.5, SHG=1, Hits-0.05, BS-0.05, Shots-0.05, Wins-2, Shutouts-2, Saves 0.01, Defenseman Pts-0.5

    Keep 6 (potentially 7 with a vote pending)

    2012/2013: 4th in reg season, 2nd in playoffs
    2013/2014: 1st (t) reg season, 4th in playoffs
    2014/2015: 1st reg season, 4th in playoffs
    2015/2016 7th reg season (third highest PF)

    Crosby, Malkin, Laine, Getzlaf, Radulov, Arvidsson, Rantanen, Bailey, W. Karlsson, Ducehene,Haula,
    Klingberg, Suter, Trouba, Ekblad, Provorov
    Holtby, Talbot, Varlamov

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    The number of defencemen who contribute elite stats across the board is exactly ZERO.
    No need to over analyze things here... AP is an elite defenceman in real life AND in fantasy.

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    He still is a top 5-7 defensemen, I just don't know if he'll ever reach that 55+ value where I would bother keeping him over two goalies who play on the two teams who rack up the most wins...
    10 Team keeper league
    (9F, 4D, 2G, 4 bench, 2 IR)
    H2H
    Goals-1, Assists-1, PPP-0.5, SHG=1, Hits-0.05, BS-0.05, Shots-0.05, Wins-2, Shutouts-2, Saves 0.01, Defenseman Pts-0.5

    Keep 6 (potentially 7 with a vote pending)

    2012/2013: 4th in reg season, 2nd in playoffs
    2013/2014: 1st (t) reg season, 4th in playoffs
    2014/2015: 1st reg season, 4th in playoffs
    2015/2016 7th reg season (third highest PF)

    Crosby, Malkin, Laine, Getzlaf, Radulov, Arvidsson, Rantanen, Bailey, W. Karlsson, Ducehene,Haula,
    Klingberg, Suter, Trouba, Ekblad, Provorov
    Holtby, Talbot, Varlamov

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by 27Blue View Post
    No need to over analyze things here... AP is an elite defenceman in real life AND in fantasy.

    It is simply not true that he is ELITE in fantasy hockey.
    And yes... yes... there is a need to over analyze things here.

    Most multi-cat pools include PIM, SOG, and possibly HIT.
    Some pools, LIKE THIS ONE, don't even capture Pietrangelo's strengths... +/- and PPA.

    AP's 32 PIM rank him outside the top 100 D-men in PIM.
    AP's 154 SOG rank him #26 in SOG.
    AP's 23 Hits rank him about 200th among D-men in that category.

    These are three VERY consistent categories where Defensemen rarely change.
    He's not going to suddenly become a big PIM guy... or big HIT guy... or shoot more.

    So... he's currently the #11 overall defensemen, with his 50+pts and his 18 PPP.

    There's no INCREASE left for him in any statistic.
    Which means he will CONTINUE to be around the #10 overall defenseman year-in, year-out.

    If you want to call a guy "Elite" (in fantasy), he's got to be top 10% player in a fantasy league.
    In THIS pool, there are 10 teams x 4D = 40 D in play. If Pietrangelo isn't top four... he's not elite.

    Now... let's look specifically at the categories in this pool (G, A, PPG, forget SHG - dumb cat, PIM... Note, there is no PPA value, no SOG value, no +/- value)
    :
    G: Pietrangelo has 8. Um... the 32nd-40th best defensemen all have 8 this year. That makes AP "less than average" in goals. In a category value score of 1-10. He gets a 2. Bottom 20% of counting (40D) defensemen.
    A: Pietrangelo has 43. That's 5th overall among defenseman. That makes AP "elite" in assists, OK. In a category value score of 1-10. He gets a 9. Top 12% of counting (40D) defenseman.
    PPG: Pietrangelo has 2. That's tied for 44th best among defensemen. Category score of 1-10... 2.
    SHG: Pietrangelo has 0. I don't even count this category, it's dumb and will fluctuate year to year.
    PIM: Pietragenlo has 32. That's tied for 110th among defensemen. Category score of 1-10... 1.

    AP's four-category totals in this pool:
    G: 2/10
    A: 9/10
    PPG: 1/10
    PIM: 1/10
    Total: 13/40. Elite? My ass, that's not elite... that's pedestrian. (Note: One of AP's best fantasy values is his terrific +/-... not counted in this pool).


    Let's now do Chris Kunitz:
    Goals: 35. That's 8th among forward. With 90F counting, that puts him in top 10%. Category score = 9.
    Assists: 32. That's 51st-55th among forwards. With 90F counting, that puts him at about 40%. Category score = 4.
    PPG: 13. Tied for 4th among forwards. With 90F counting, that again puts him top 5%. Category score = 9.
    PIM: 64. That puts him tied for 70th among 90F. Category score = 4. (Note, with forwards being NEEDED to include PPG, since D don't traditionally stock PPG well, adding PIM into a goal scorer is huge).

    Kunitz total score: 9/10 + 4/10 + 9/10 + 4/10. 26/40.


    Scores:
    Kunitz = 26.
    Pietrangelo = 13.

    This pool, this roster allocation (9F, 4D), these categories (no +/-, no PPA)... Kunitz >>> Pietrangelo.

    Stock your forwards for pure offense & goal scoring with these settings. Late draft D to stock PIM.

    This pool will not be won with defensemen unless they are named Karlsson, Subban, Byfuglien, or Weber.
    With PPG & PIM... this pool will be won with those gritty shooter types: Perry, Kunitz, Benn, Backes, Landeskog, Simmonds, Lucic, Hartnell... even guys like Troy Brouwer & Clarke MacArthur have excellent value in this format.

    There is no +/-, no PPA value in this pool.
    The Datsyuks, Sedins, and gentlemanly pass-first defensemen like Pietrangelo and Yandle take BIG value hits in this pool format - not a lie, truth. Make note.
    (I've crunched spreadsheets for several different pool formats, not lying to you hear, have somebody check FHG if it needs to be done... Kunitz >>> AP.)

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    I was talking about AP in general, not specifically in this league.

    Also, it is easy to cherry pick stats to make AP look pedestrian.
    I've never seen a pool that includes HITS but not Blocked Shots.
    I could do the same and only pick categories that will help my argument
    - in a pool that counts points, plus/minus and Blocked Shots - AP is the best in the league.
    See how that works... or I too could choose some random forwards to compare him to and make a solid argument.
    There are no defencemen who are elite in every category. period.
    AP's total package of fantasy stats is elite...
    not the very best, but in the handful of players at the top and bankable.


    You like Keith but not Pietrangelo - makes no sense to me.

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    Pietrangelo is not up there with the greats in terms of offense, and doesn't contribute in hits and PIM. I'd consider him a guy like Ryan Suter going forward

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    maybe we need a glossary of terms...

    elite, greats, beast.... cause arguing over arbitrary terms is pointless.

    BUT... Suter is a bad comparison... He's old and has never surpassed 46 points in a season.
    AP is 24 and has cracked 50 twice.

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    The man will be a norris trohpy candidate for the next 10 years, and IS an elite real life AND fantasty defenceman. However in a points only league there are only (2) defencemen even worth keeping and he isnt one of them. Miller (if he signs in STL) and MAF get kept over AP all day, every day in my world and in most league formats especially points only...

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    Default Re: Pietrangelo Going Forward...

    Ppa will probably be added to our league and MAYBE plus minus an shots (50/50 on that but think it will go
    Through). Even then do you still keep Ap?? I think Yandle is a pp beast and very underrated so I will
    Keep him. But I wouldn't say Weber is much better at all... Provably put letang on the elite list when healthy
    10 Team keeper league
    (9F, 4D, 2G, 4 bench, 2 IR)
    H2H
    Goals-1, Assists-1, PPP-0.5, SHG=1, Hits-0.05, BS-0.05, Shots-0.05, Wins-2, Shutouts-2, Saves 0.01, Defenseman Pts-0.5

    Keep 6 (potentially 7 with a vote pending)

    2012/2013: 4th in reg season, 2nd in playoffs
    2013/2014: 1st (t) reg season, 4th in playoffs
    2014/2015: 1st reg season, 4th in playoffs
    2015/2016 7th reg season (third highest PF)

    Crosby, Malkin, Laine, Getzlaf, Radulov, Arvidsson, Rantanen, Bailey, W. Karlsson, Ducehene,Haula,
    Klingberg, Suter, Trouba, Ekblad, Provorov
    Holtby, Talbot, Varlamov

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