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Thread: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by austeane View Post
    I know you won't see it, but I don't think this is a bad place for this.

    Decades ago there may have been racist, well meaning jokes about black prospects.
    A thread here, in a forum about a sport that is incredibly white would have been appropriate and possibly necessary.

    Years ago, weaker players or divers would have been called f ags, or jokes would have been made (without bad intentions) over a persons sexuality. I bet Sean Avery was called gay more than once.
    A thread here, in a forum about a sport that is incredibly heterosexual would have been appropriate and possibly necessary.

    Now we are dealing with "whining like a girl" or being weak like a girl in some way. The Sedin Sisters is a derisive term. So is Cindy Crosby.
    A thread here, in a forum that is incredibly male-dominant would have been appropriate and possibly necessary. If you don't think this is a needed discussion in the world of hockey, ask yourself if you would honestly be ok if your team hired a female GM. Do you honestly think that there wouldn't be a disproportionate amount of criticism for the hire, even if she was supremely qualified?
    See this is a level-headed post. But I will say there still exists a big difference between reality and humor. If all parties can distinguish the difference, it's all good. But when some people get offended and take things personal, or out of context, things get dicey. This thread is proof of that. I will never be convinced that saying "Crosby is acting like a little girl" is some defamatory comment towards women in general. And it is not comparable to, say, calling Jarome Iginla the N-word, because that word is a negative and hateful world that has caused riot and death. It would be like referring to female athlete as "wh...s" or "sl..s" instead of "girls or women" IMO. Two totally different things. The gay reference is different and I still think that gets blown out of proportion too - but like a said, it all depends on the context and if it's being used maliciously. At least that's the way I see it... but I have thick skin and have dealt with jokes about race, appearance and sexuality my entire life.

    As for your question - if the Flyers hired a female GM she would be criticized until she proved she was a damn good GM. And if she was, the fans wouldn't care that her name was Paula and not Paul. And, yes, honestly there would be criticism, but I think that has more to do with a female NHL GM being "foreign" to people more than anything. I think the same could be said if the Flyers hired a GM straight out of Russia who could only speak Russian. I mean, was Manon Rheaume discriminated against? If I recall, she received a great ovation during a preseason game or something in Tampa. mounD has painted a very drab picture of the way women are perceived in our society and I just don't see it.

    Perhaps I'm oblivious to the extent of female discrimination he and others are referring to. I was raised pretty much by a single mother (who plays fantasy hockey mind you!) I was also introduced to hockey and the Flyers by her and not my dad. Women have always been strong and treated fairly in my eyes, not to mention they control over 80% of retail spending, including 65% of new car sales. Women are also earning degrees at a higher rate then men and are increasingly out-earning their male counterparts... and these are National numbers. Now, are there some old school men who are ignorant male supremacists that want to rule the world? Yes. But they don't limit their superiority to women - they think they are better than anyone different than them in general. Fortunately, I think these types of people are a dying breed.

    When mounD references stuff like sex trafficking, slavery and abuse, I immediately lump those perpetrators into the category of "criminal scum" and not "discriminators against women." People like that prey on victims, regardless of gender, age or race IMO... women just happen to be their convenient target today and tomorrow it will be a different group of victims.

    I think there is a time and place to make progress with serious social issues. I don't think a fantasy hockey forum is the ideal place unless there was a remark made that is completely over-the-top and hateful (and saying Crosby is acting like a little girl hardly qualifies as that IMO). But I also think people need to take message board posts for what they are and not get their panties in a bunch. We're talking fantasy hockey here. Sometimes there will be humor, smack talk and tongue-and-cheek comments made. Posters shouldn't need to walk on egg shells because the holier-than-thou police choose to parade around these parts with pitchforks.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    The point was never that one person saying one thing, with no malice intended was going to ruin the lives of women everywhere, or cause direct harm to anyone. I get that things like rape and a history of oppression came up in the ensuing discussion, and people are thus making connections that weren't intended.

    The point isn't "fungchen you are a terrible person, and that one thing you said has ruined the world for girls forever." The point is "fungchen, calling Crosby a girl contributes in a very small way to a very big and serious issue. Could you choose a non-gendered term next time?"

    If I throw my coffee cup on the ground at the local park, I haven't ruined the park for everyone forever. I haven't made it impossible for neighbourhood children to play there, or encouraged a bad crowd to hang out there, drinking and shooting up and leaving needles around. But littering still isn't cool right? Because if I, and a few dozen other people throw our garbage on the ground in that park, and we do it regularly, the place starts to go to shit. Then other people who wouldn't normally litter decide what the hell? Other people are doing it, so why not me? Now my neighbourhood park is looking kind of rough, and parents aren't taking their kids there as often, etc. The point isn't that one person doing one small thing is a huge problem. The point is that many people doing a small thing again and again can create a huge problem, and I don't think it's unreasonable, when you see someone contributing to a problem that you feel strongly about, to try and explain the situation to them, and ask them to stop contributing to it. Is this thread the right place to do that? Sure. If you care about something, you call it out when and where you see it happen. Anywhere else is irrelevant.

    Now I get that this thread got uglier than it should have, and I don't think either side is innocent in that, myself included. I still feel though that mounD's point is an important one, and I am glad that he raised it where and when he did.

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by fungchen3 View Post
    See this is a level-headed post. But I will say there still exists a big difference between reality and humor. If all parties can distinguish the difference, it's all good. But when some people get offended and take things personal, or out of context, things get dicey. This thread is proof of that. I will never be convinced that saying "Crosby is acting like a little girl" is some defamatory comment towards women in general. And it is not comparable to, say, calling Jarome Iginla the N-word, because that word is a negative and hateful world that has caused riot and death. It would be like referring to female athlete as "wh...s" or "sl..s" instead of "girls or women" IMO. Two totally different things. The gay reference is different and I still think that gets blown out of proportion too - but like a said, it all depends on the context and if it's being used maliciously. At least that's the way I see it... but I have thick skin and have dealt with jokes about race, appearance and sexuality my entire life.

    As for your question - if the Flyers hired a female GM she would be criticized until she proved she was a damn good GM. And if she was, the fans wouldn't care that her name was Paula and not Paul. And, yes, honestly there would be criticism, but I think that has more to do with a female NHL GM being "foreign" to people more than anything. I think the same could be said if the Flyers hired a GM straight out of Russia who could only speak Russian. I mean, was Manon Rheaume discriminated against? If I recall, she received a great ovation during a preseason game or something in Tampa. mounD has painted a very drab picture of the way women are perceived in our society and I just don't see it.

    Perhaps I'm oblivious to the extent of female discrimination he and others are referring to. I was raised pretty much by a single mother (who plays fantasy hockey mind you!) I was also introduced to hockey and the Flyers by her and not my dad. Women have always been strong and treated fairly in my eyes, not to mention they control over 80% of retail spending, including 65% of new car sales. Women are also earning degrees at a higher rate then men and are increasingly out-earning their male counterparts... and these are National numbers. Now, are there some old school men who are ignorant male supremacists that want to rule the world? Yes. But they don't limit their superiority to women - they think they are better than anyone different than them in general. Fortunately, I think these types of people are a dying breed.

    When mounD references stuff like sex trafficking, slavery and abuse, I immediately lump those perpetrators into the category of "criminal scum" and not "discriminators against women." People like that prey on victims, regardless of gender, age or race IMO... women just happen to be their convenient target today and tomorrow it will be a different group of victims.

    I think there is a time and place to make progress with serious social issues. I don't think a fantasy hockey forum is the ideal place unless there was a remark made that is completely over-the-top and hateful (and saying Crosby is acting like a little girl hardly qualifies as that IMO). But I also think people need to take message board posts for what they are and not get their panties in a bunch. We're talking fantasy hockey here. Sometimes there will be humor, smack talk and tongue-and-cheek comments made. Posters shouldn't need to walk on egg shells because the holier-than-thou police choose to parade around these parts with pitchforks.
    This is, for the most part, a really solid post by Fungchen; I agree with a lot of the things you're saying here, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain the context and circumstances a little bit. I know you are a good person, Fung. I know you respect women, and I know that you weren't trying to do anything negative with your comments. I understand all of those things, and I hope my comments didn't offend you personally. I never meant to call you out as a sexist, or as an active discriminator ... nothing like that. All I wanted was to show you how your comments could be taken in a negative way, causing damage to an already bad situation. I really am sorry for some of the comments I made, especially those regarding your wife. She isn't here to defend her points, or qualify her answers, and it's not fair to pursue an argument against a view that cannot be explained or supplemented. I don't want you to think I have anything against women, such as your wife, who feel that this stuff isn't a big deal. I guess I just wish people would recognize it for what it is.

    The only thing about this post that irks me is that you fail to equate this kinds of discrimination with racial / ethnic / sexual-orientation types of discrimination. Of course, all have their very real differences and should be addressed as SEPARATE and unique issues; however, they are all very real and very pervasive types of discrimination that have substantial negative effects on particular groups across the country and across the world. I think it's fantastic that you were raised (and introduced to hockey) by such a strong woman, that kind of stuff really makes a difference with how men view women later in their lives; and I'm sure that your mother imparted values of respect and dignity with you. But just because women control 80% of retail spending, 65% of new car sales, and are FINALLY earning degrees at a higher rate than men, that does not mean that there isn't a problem. Women have historically been discriminated against in a variety of ways, and things like the rape-culture of the United States prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it isn't just "criminal scum" who engage in the oppression and large-scale violence against women.

    When studies indicate that nearly 1/2 of all women will be a victim of some kind of sexual assault during their lifetimes, there is absolutely no legitimate ground to argue that it's only "criminal scum" engaging in these horrible crimes against women. These figures are made all the more striking when you consider how DRASTICALLY underreported rape is, in general. It's just a really scary situation, and one that people don't even completely realize. Which brings me to sex trafficking ... you might find this hard to believe, but the conservative estimate is that there are over 200,000 Domestic Minors in Sex Trafficking (DMST) in the United States alone -- the vast, vast majority of these being young women. These are kids who were born in the United States, young women forced into various forms of the sex trade by pimps, overwhelmingly male. Now, this may seem a bit alarmist to you, but we can't have our heads in the sand with this problem. The lives of millions of young women are at stake, and a few college degrees isn't going to solve the problem.

    You also mentioned the "fact" that women are increasingly out-earning their male counterparts. To that I say, it's about damn time. But your argument is largely anecdotal, and doesn't acknowledge that women still face an artificial "glass ceiling" in most professions, and women are still only earning roughly 3/4 what men do for the exact same jobs. It's nice to talk about progress on this issue, but touting the progress belies the fact that very real problems still exist, and if we don't acknowledge them in a serious way we risk letting them become worse before they become better. While you can look at mass rape, unequal pay, domestic violence, etc., and conclude that women are just the "convenient victims" right now ... but again, I think that's missing the point a little bit. Women have been "convenient victims" since the dawn of Western civilization. It's gone on too long, and furthermore, there is absolutely no basis for saying that women aren't being targeted because they are women. You think women aren't being specifically targeted in rapes? You think that women aren't being specifically undervalued in the work force? You think that women aren't overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence? It shouldn't matter why women are victims, just that they are victims and that needs to change.

    I definitely don't think your comments were hateful in any way. It's pretty clear you weren't advocating discrimination against women, or anything close to it; however, the intent is irrelevant when we know the effect it has on women. You're totally right that there is going to be humor, smack-talk, and tongue in cheek comments made on these forums. But would you feel differently about the issue if someone was saying negative things about homosexuals? What about if someone was spouting racist ideologies on these forums? I'd hope that we would expose those things as a community, and show that we won't tolerate discrimination on these boards. My goal wasn't to run you out of town like the villagers in Frankenstein ... I just want to show some people the quiet discrimination present in your comments, intentional or not, and highlight the fact that it contributes to a culture that inherently lessens the value and equality of women.

    I do think you're a good guy, but I'm not sure you fully understand the situation. In that sense, you're very lucky that you haven't been exposed to these issues. But I can guarantee you that you know a woman who has been raped, who has been the victim of domestic violence, and who has received less pay than she is entitled to. Whatever kind of progress we're making, that's an unacceptable situation. I just want everyone to be on the right side of this one, and stop saying things that could potentially have a very negative effect on women's self-worth.

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    I'm completely relaxed ... so calling out horrible sexism that's ubiquitous in the world of sports is somehow not relaxed? How about you stop enabling oppression against women? Until then, I won't be "relaxing" at all. Just because something is common doesn't mean it's okay. Slavery was pretty common in the 19th century; mass rape and sex trafficking is pretty common ... should we just throw up our hands because they're so "common" ???

    Completely BS response, Ev. Not like I expected you to care about equality or anything.


    I don't expect people to agree with me here; it's not like most men are willing to admit their deep biases against women. It's just flat-out completely unacceptable to denigrate women, as a distinct class, by saying stuff like "he hits like a girl," etc. We should be ashamed of ourselves, as men, that we allow BS like this to continue. It's the 21st century, and we're all human beings. It's time to take some responsibility for our BS and make a stand. We may not realize that the words we use have a profound impact on others, but when society continually "lessens" the importance of women, it registers with young women and girls. Would you want your daughter to feel like less of a human being because she has a vagina? I didn't think so ...
    Women do the same shit with men all the time. I work at a job with mostly women and I constantly hear them saying stuff about their husbands and making comments about how stupid men, how lazy they are, and plenty of other nasty stuff.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Apparently I need to spread the love around a bit before I give rep to fungchen or blayze. Who the hell even knew
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by letangerang58 View Post
    Women do the same shit with men all the time. I work at a job with mostly women and I constantly hear them saying stuff about their husbands and making comments about how stupid men, how lazy they are, and plenty of other nasty stuff.
    The difference is that men don't face real inequality; men overwhelmingly are not the victims of sexual assault; men do not suffer from income inequality, and men's self-image (for the most part) does not suffer because of discrimination by women. In order for discrimination to be real, those discriminating must hold some power in the relationship dynamic. In society at large, women do not hold that power over men. Though it might be unfortunate that the women you work with say nasty things about men, it's nowhere near the same thing as the culture of denigration directed towards women because it's not contributing to a larger culture of subjugation. Men just aren't victimized by women in any way that remotely resembles the kinds of oppression men wield against women through inequality, sexual violence, etc. It's just not the same. At all.

    Get back to me when white men are facing real discrimination. Oh wait ... it doesn't happen.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    The difference is that men don't face real inequality; men overwhelmingly are not the victims of sexual assault; men do not suffer from income inequality, and men's self-image (for the most part) does not suffer because of discrimination by women. In order for discrimination to be real, those discriminating must hold some power in the relationship dynamic. In society at large, women do not hold that power over men. Though it might be unfortunate that the women you work with say nasty things about men, it's nowhere near the same thing as the culture of denigration directed towards women because it's not contributing to a larger culture of subjugation. Men just aren't victimized by women in any way that remotely resembles the kinds of oppression men wield against women through inequality, sexual violence, etc. It's just not the same. At all.

    Get back to me when white men are facing real discrimination. Oh wait ... it doesn't happen.
    So it is okay to say things that might damage someone's self worth so long as they belong to a group of society that 'has it pretty good'?

    Ridiculous.

    Don't give me that 'but they don't face discrimination' line either, because it is irrelevant. If any speech that can negatively impact a person's (any person) self worth based on attributes beyond their control (race, gender, orientation, nationality, etc) is considered bad then all speech of that type must be considered bad. I don't mind you taking stand on principles, but I'd respect you a good deal more if you applied those principles equally.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    This thread is still going on?

    wow.

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Guru View Post
    This thread is still going on?

    wow.
    I was thinking the same thing. It's too bad the most active thread (by far) in the hockey section of the site has had nothing to do about hockey for about 7 pages now.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    ....and we're back on track. Correct?
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    I tend to agree with Loch on this one. A behaviour that is wrong is wrong, period. Yes there is more potential for harm where a power imbalance exists, and social justice is very focused on those power imbalances. I get that. If you are trying to maximize the impact of your effort, you are going to focus on the specific areas where the problem is greatest. But see, if people weren't ******** to one another in general, power imbalances wouldn't matter. It's so frustrating to see these discussions evolve into:

    "But women are mean sometimes so I can be mean too!"

    Vs

    "It's okay for women to be mean because statistically they are worse off."

    Neither of those arguments makes a lot of sense. I really don't think the goal should be to get everyone on even footing so we can mistreat one another equally. The mistreatment itself deserves attention as an issue of equal importance. If your nine year old and seven year old are fighting, do you address the fighting, and the inability to work together, or do you tell the 9-year-old he can't punch or go for the groin, while telling the 7-year-old that biting and boots to the balls are okay because he's little?

    Sure, you are going to try and impress on the bigger kid that he has an advantage and he should be careful not to hurt his little brother, but if you let the little one be a total shit. Just because he's little and can do less damage, there is no justice there at all.

    I get that activists for social justice get extremely frustrated with the whole "women say mean stuff...sometimes black people aren't nice to white people...my friend knows a gay man who says bad things about straight people..." line of argument being used to brush off what they are trying to say. I get that such an argument really muddies the waters when you are trying to focus in on a specific problem area, but the reality is that there is a bigger problem, which is how humans treat other humans. The argument that we only need to be decent people when we have the upper hand is a hard sell.

    I am all for the premise that men should be willing to make changes in our behaviour and attitudes, in order to stop perpetuating conditions that make our society less safe, less welcoming, and less free for women. I don't buy for a second that men shouldn't change because women do some bad shit too. That's absurd. At the same time though, I don't believe that discriminatory behaviour should be wrong for me, but right for someone else, ever.

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Okay so, would I have commented on fungchen3’s “Flop like a girl” comment? No. But since it was questioned and someone asked for a woman’s take, I spoke up.

    Tongue-in cheek, smack talking. They’re some of things I like about sports and hockey in particular. I like a dirty joke as much as the next person. I am not a delicate flower who needs to be coddled. I just want to be considered one of the guys. I do not want anyone to walk on egg shells because of me.

    I do not consider myself over-sensitive and I can and do trash talk with the best of them. Ironically I am in a 30-team dynasty pool and we had to lock the comments section of our pool’s forum because some of the men in our pool complained that the smack talking bothering them. As the only woman in the pool, I thought this was a joke and still do! Talk about sensitive.

    I also do not think it’s necessary for everyone to always post “guys/girls” all the time. While it’s nice from time to time for people to recognize that women are members of Dobber’s sites and avid readers and posters, I would rather just be considered on of the guys. It is tiresome and unnecessary to always have to type “guys/gals”. Just “guys” is fine.

    I also hate the word “feminist”. It has taken on such a negative connotation. I prefer the word equality. I also hate how being “politically correct” has taken over our society. Seems one small complaint can over-rule the majority. The pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction.

    To put things in context of how I feel, comments such as “Sorry, but a few of you are acting like little girls in this thread - don't get your panties in a bunch” in isolation it’s not a big deal if it’s meant as sarcasm.

    “I sincerely hope that you took the laptop into the kitchen for her to see... It's cruel to lure them out and give them the illusion of freedom.”- this comment doesn’t bother me a bit because I know it was humour and I chuckled.

    And yes Fungchen3, I know your comments of “bitch” and “ragging” were said for affect but I have had both things said to me as insults. Did I let it bother me? No. But do I respect the men who said it? No. To me it’s all about respect and context.

    Fungchen3, I do not think you are sexist and I was glad you shared your background and about your mother and that she plays fantasy hockey. I hope she is a member here on the forums. You say in your experience women have always been treated fairly. Lucky you and the women in your life. It is not so for most women though. Mind you the spectrum is wide, from comments not really made with ill-intentions (but that do sting a bit) to full out sexual discrimination.

    I consider myself a strong woman, but part of what has made me strong is that I’ve become that way because of having to stand up for myself against the all too subtle at times sexual discrimination. I have benefitted from the strong women who have come before me, but we have a way to go yet. Did you know that my grandmothers were not allowed to vote in Canada for over half their lives because they were WOMEN.
    Think about that. Women got the vote in 1926, really not all that long ago. I cringe every time I think about how that made my grandmothers feel.
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  13. #118
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    Dobber Sports Stud

    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    I've had this discussions with Dobber a while back. I am going to throw out just a few short examples of what many women experience.

    1. I was the first woman to coach a minor hockey team in my town. During one of my first games the opposing coach shouted for all to hear that he “would not coach against a WOMAN” and proceeded to hold up the game until I left the bench. I did not leave, so he stormed off out of the rink. This man went on to become president of our minor hockey organization. I kept coaching and eventually founded and GM’d a successful AAA girl’s organization but I will never forget how that man made me feel.

    2. My daughter tried out for a competitive minor hockey team and during her final selection interview she was told that she was in the top 5 of all players trying out but the coaches would not take a spot away from a “boy” and give it to her. I did not know what to say to her. It was unfair but it was reality and there was nothing she could do about it.

    Do I believe that still happens in 2014? Yes 100%. There was a happy ending as she went on to captain back-to-back NCAA championship teams but it could have just as easily ended with her saying she was giving up the game she loved. Who needs the grief?

    3. I am proud to say that the men in my fantasy league consider me one of the most competitive and knowledgeable GMs in our pool , but whenever I’m in a different setting and the subject of hockey comes up, men turn to my husband or other men present to discuss the game and when I try to add to the conversation, I am dismissed with a look and actions that are saying “what does she know, she’s a woman”.
    You know it’s kind of like the companies that feel the need to make NHL jerseys in pink. When I wear an NHL jersey it is the authentic one. I would never wear a pink one.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    I'm not saying men don't face discrimination too though. Sure they do for all sorts of reasons.

    An example would be "he's too small". I've seen goalies that are far superior lose a position because they were considered too small. Also happens with other positions as well. Look at Marty St. Louis. It has made him play with a chip on his shoulder and you could argue it made him the player he is today. You can tell it is always in the back of his mind though and he continues to feel he has something to prove even with all the success he's had.
    Excelsior~ Ever Higher

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    I...am your father.

    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    And on that note, it's time to lock it down. Thanks Excelsior for the final say
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