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Thread: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    The only thing that's ironic here is your wife's tacit endorsement of sex discrimination.
    So, let me get this straight - you're the only person in this thread who is personally attacking a woman who you don't know, yet I'm in the wrong and you're some sort of self-proclaimed gold standard in morality. You took my initial comments and blew them waaaaaay out of proportion so you could appear to be some sort of holy Dalai Lama. I've been out with female friends who stereotype men all the time and say things like "all men think with their other head." OMG!! How dare they?!?! That's discrimination against men! We are all sex-crazed jerks who can't think rationally. Do comments (and generalizations about men) bother me? Hell no. I laugh them off as the snarky hyperbole they're supposed to be. Now if this same group of women secretly organized an "I Hate All Men Group" then I would think they're extreme and misguided. It's all about context. You took a Crosby bust and turned it into something PERSONAL where you openly insulted my wife multiple times. Let that marinate for a moment while you stand on your soapbox.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    If those responsible for the gains of the American Civil Rights movement felt this way, they would've thrown up their hands and said:

    "Segregation in schools? Not a problem because it's just school, it's not REALLY society. Let's just leave it, quit overreacting people."

    Get it? The venue is irrelevant. The issues are important, and as long as they rear their ugly head in these forums, I'll be doing my duty to speak out against it.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by fungchen3 View Post
    So, let me guess this straight - you're the only person in this thread who is personally attacking a woman who you don't know, yet I'm in the wrong and you're some sort of self-proclaimed gold standard in morality. You took my initial comments and blew them waaaaaay out of proportion so you could appear to be some sort of holy Dalai Lama. I've been out with female friends who stereotype men all the time and say things like "all men think with their other head." OMG!! How dare they?!?! That's discrimination against men! We are all sex-crazed jerks who can't think rationally. Do comments (and generalizations about men) bother me? Hell no. I laugh them off as the snarky hyperbole they're supposed to be. Now if this same group of women secretly organized an "I Hate All Men Group" then I would think they're extreme and misguided. It's all about context. You took a Crosby bust and turned it into something PERSONAL where you openly insulted my wife multiple times. Let that marinate for a moment while you stand on your soapbox.
    Don't be so goddamn thick. He is attacking a stance that is just not rational for a woman to have, since it goes against her own well-being. Don't make this into some silly "WHAT THE HELL DID YOU JUST SAY ABOUT MY MOM???" argument.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakkster View Post
    To me, "it's a sports forum" is not good enough reason to leave the issue alone. Better to try and change things for the better, regardless of the arena.
    REALLY?! You're going to talk about racism at the next KKK meeting and think your message is going to be well received?

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Guru View Post
    REALLY?! You're going to talk about racism at the next KKK meeting and think your message is going to be well received?
    Whether or not the message is well received is not relevant. It's not a popularity contest. It's about common sense. What matters is if it's a place where questioning the status quo is needed. A place that is traditionally "jock" like a sports forum is more than deserving of having some discussions like this one. This is one of the places where it SHOULD be brought up.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by fungchen3 View Post
    So, let me guess this straight - you're the only person in this thread who is personally attacking a woman who you don't know, yet I'm in the wrong and you're some sort of self-proclaimed gold standard in morality. You took my initial comments and blew them waaaaaay out of proportion so you could appear to be some sort of holy Dalai Lama. I've been out with female friends who stereotype men all the time and say things like "all men think with their other head." OMG!! How dare they?!?! That's discrimination against men! We are all sex-crazed jerks who can't think rationally. Do comments (and generalizations about men) bother me? Hell no. I laugh them off as the snarky hyperbole they're supposed to be. Now if this same group of women secretly organized an "I Hate All Men Group" then I would think they're extreme and misguided. It's all about context. You took a Crosby bust and turned it into something PERSONAL where you openly insulted my wife multiple times. Let that marinate for a moment while you stand on your soapbox.
    Criticizing women and criticizing men is the difference between voicing dissent against the government (criticizing men) and kicking a weak person while they're down (criticizing women). Men dominate society, that's just a fact. It's not like women who bring men's sexual propensity and inclinations toward violence are actually contributing to a negative self-image for men. Another key difference is that women have GOOD REASON to distrust and criticize men; rape / murder / discrimination / gender-gap / income-inequality ... the list goes on. Men have perpetuated a system that belittles women, values them far less than men in the "open market," and continually treats women who are GENUINE VICTIMS (of sexual assault or whatever the case may be) as somehow deserving of their punishment -- this is where the whole "she was asking for it" argument comes from.

    If you want to characterize my comments about your wife as a personal attack, then so be it. My intention was merely to point out that women can be guilty of perpetuating sexism and gender discrimination, as well. As I have said repeatedly in this thread: I am more than certain that you and your wife are good people, and have no intention to demean, belittle, or subjugate women in any way. But that's not important here. If the effect is to demean, belittle, and subjugate, it's entirely irrelevant what your intentions are. Discrimination is a strict liability offense as far as I'm concerned, and if the effect is to marginalize a particular group (here, women), it should be a moot point what the underlying motivations are.

    The fact is that you and your wife fail to see the problem here. Whether that's a product of you being lucky to not face these issues on a daily basis, White privilege, etc. it doesn't matter much to the rest of society, and to the women whose self-image is lessened and eroded everytime you say something stupid about "girls." You raised some examples about criticizing children and babies; however, your distinction is not analogous here. Children and babies are distinguishable in that there isn't an historical imperative to subjugate women to a domestic role and preclude them from entering society as equals to men. If you want to just equate anything negative with subversive gender discrimination, that's your prerogative ... but you'd be missing the point.

    I'm not any better than any of you guys / gals in this thread; my only wish is to make people aware of these issues, and do what they can personally to root our their own biases and maybe improve the world one kind act at a time. If it means refraining from saying something negative about women, then that's a simple fix that you can make in your life that would actually have an impact. I'm not personally attacking you or your wife, just exposing the viewpoints and ideas as backwards and damaging to a free society. I fully understand that you aren't advocating the discrimination of women, but your words add fuel to the fire.

    I realize that my comments regarding you and your wife bordered on the 'ad hominem,' but I find it hard to believe that you can take my comment that I "feel bad" for your wife being tricked by a patriarchal society as a personal attack against her. I've repeatedly said that I'm sure you two are good people; just that your comments are misguided and backwards. It's not my fault that your wife's views are contributing to gender discrimination. That's just a fact; it's not a personal attack. It actually really saddens me, sincerely, that your wife doesn't recognize these issues as important. This kind of subtle, yet nefarious discrimination has no place in the 21st century, and I really hope that you guys (and girls) can work to overcome these biases you hold so very deeply.

    I didn't mean to engage in personal attacks against you, your wife, or anyone else. But will I stop calling out the arguments as stupid? Will I refrain from calling a biased spade a biased spade? You bet your ass I won't. I can't be asked to teach you the distinction between personal attacks and calling out a dumb argument for being dumb. That's on you, dude.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    It's completely relevant.

    A KKK meeting is another place where racism SHOULD be brought up.

    Theres a time and place for everything. Otherwise you're just preaching on deaf ears.

    I'm done with this thread. I've already wasted more time than I wanted. I'm going to go back talking about, oh I don't know, something fantasy related....on a fantasy hockey website....in the general hockey chat.

    You want to express your views about feminism, create a different thread in the lounge, subject it 'Womens Rights' and that will be A OK with me. I'll know not to open it. Thanks.

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    You're right. Let's continue to marginalize the issues, and only bring them up in predetermined circumstances ... that'll affect change.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Well... when I went to bed this thread was only a little nuts.

    Let's recap:
    Fung said Crosby flopped like a little girl.
    Some folks felt it was sexist misogyny, some did not.
    Arguments were made, by both sides.
    Arguments were dismissed in favour of personal attacks, by both sides.
    This turned into an epic, effed up, sh*t fight in the monkey cages. (ps. we are monkeys)

    The take away here:
    1. mounD and Dakks do have a valid point. There was a time (less that 5 years ago) that Crosby could have been called a ***, or queer, or the like with impunity. That, thankfully, has gone the way of the dinosaur. Is the little girl comment on par? I'd say no for number of reasons, but less bad doesn't mean okay.
    2. They did a piss poor job of making it. A simple 'dude, that's not cool and this is why' followed by dropping the mic and exiting stage left would be so much more effective. And mounD, claiming that your comments about Fung's wife weren't an insult is BS and you know it, never should have been made if you were being 'rational'.
    3. Crosby is a diver. This is, however, better shown in other videos (of which there are many).

    ... and finally,
    4. You know what people should take away from a discussion like this? Respect for others.
    5. You know what people will remember from this particular thread? Insults, idiocy and just about anything other than respect.


    Seriously folks, chill.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Thread explosion! Let me go get my morning coffee, this one should be good!
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    The fact is that you and your wife fail to see the problem here. Whether that's a product of you being lucky to not face these issues on a daily basis.
    Yes and no.

    Sexual discrimination and/or women being mistreated is a serious issue. You seem well-informed about the topic and that's a good thing - there's nothing wrong with that. That said, not everyone relates to things on the same level. Where my wife and I come from (and the large majority of people we associate with - family, friends, coworkers, etc.) there is NO discrimination against women. My wife has a career as good as mine. She has never been assaulted or knowingly discriminated against in a legit manner. And, no, my wife (and the women I know) would not be personally offended by someone saying, "you punch like a little girl" or "Crosby acts like a little girl." From what I've found, most people know how to handle jokes or tongue-in-cheek comments - apparently, not everyone does, but that's not my problem.

    I grew up in South Philly, surrounded by Men, Women, Kids, Italians, African Americans, Irish, Latinos, Asians and have been friends with all of the above. We busted on each other all the time and cracked jokes (and still do) but none of us were ever really offended. Why? Maybe because we know there is no true malice behind the jokes... and we also have a better sense of reality in some cases - learning not to sweat the small stuff. And by small stuff, I mean "jokes and name calling," NOT real sexual discrimination - that is the big stuff.

    IMO, you have a completely different outlook on life (and this subject) and, in this thread, have behaved like you are morally superior to others because of your views on this subject... all over me comparing Crosby to a little girl, which I find WAY over-the-top in this context. You somehow took my comment as me having a stance that women are universally weak, small, frail and don't deserve to be treated equally, which is complete BS. You took a silly insult and somehow twisted it into being a corrupt mindset that influences (and or endorses through ignorance) rape, discrimination and mistreatment of women.

    And I think my Barbie analogy is ample, as well as making a statement that Hayley Wickenheiser cannot shoot the puck as hard as Zdeno Chara. It seems that people like you (who are insanely ultra-sensitive) take offense to those comments and twist them into being spearheads for those who choose to think women are inferior. Newsflash: the girl hockey players at the Olympics couldn't shoot the puck as hard as the men. SO WHAT?! It is what it is. I'm willing to bet those same women shoot the puck harder than any (or most) of the men on this forum, me included. It's the same way the women are most often the better dancers on Dancing with the Stars. Women are generally better dancers then men - who gives a crap? It doesn't mean that men are superior to women or vice versa. Yet there are some things men historically do better than women and women do better than men. Get over yourself.

    If you pride yourself in educating people how to eliminate discrimination against others who are treated unfairly, I applaud you for that. But if you were offended by my initial comment about Crosby and feel I endorse mistreating women because of it, you need to grow thicker skin and should chill when it comes to passing judgement on people. I also question your rationalization of using this "silly" Crosby thread thread as the forum to preach about a "serious" issue such as female degradation. You blew this whole thing way out of proportion.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    ... I'm just waiting for Mcgoo to come in and call someone an imbecile at this point

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    ... I'm just waiting for Mcgoo to come in and call someone an imbecile at this point
    McGoo insults like a girl...

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    ... I'm just waiting for Mcgoo to come in and call someone an imbecile at this point
    Hell, I'm clamoring for the return of Tequilamonster. I don't know what has happened to this place but everyone has become so sensitive, whiny and overly PC all of a sudden.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Guru View Post
    It's completely relevant.

    A KKK meeting is another place where racism SHOULD be brought up.

    Theres a time and place for everything. Otherwise you're just preaching on deaf ears.

    I'm done with this thread. I've already wasted more time than I wanted. I'm going to go back talking about, oh I don't know, something fantasy related....on a fantasy hockey website....in the general hockey chat.

    You want to express your views about feminism, create a different thread in the lounge, subject it 'Womens Rights' and that will be A OK with me. I'll know not to open it. Thanks.
    I know you won't see it, but I don't think this is a bad place for this.

    Decades ago there may have been racist, well meaning jokes about black prospects.
    A thread here, in a forum about a sport that is incredibly white would have been appropriate and possibly necessary.

    Years ago, weaker players or divers would have been called f ags, or jokes would have been made (without bad intentions) over a persons sexuality. I bet Sean Avery was called gay more than once.
    A thread here, in a forum about a sport that is incredibly heterosexual would have been appropriate and possibly necessary.

    Now we are dealing with "whining like a girl" or being weak like a girl in some way. The Sedin Sisters is a derisive term. So is Cindy Crosby.
    A thread here, in a forum that is incredibly male-dominant would have been appropriate and possibly necessary. If you don't think this is a needed discussion in the world of hockey, ask yourself if you would honestly be ok if your team hired a female GM. Do you honestly think that there wouldn't be a disproportionate amount of criticism for the hire, even if she was supremely qualified?
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