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Thread: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by ericdaoust View Post
    Bizarre? Just about every other Crosby negativity thread has taken this sort of turn at some point...
    Wait, someone takes a cheap shot at Crosby and the ensuing fall out is completely out of proportion? That sounds a tad unbelievable.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Loch View Post
    Wait, someone takes a cheap shot at Crosby and the ensuing fall out is completely out of proportion? That sounds a tad unbelievable.
    Doesn't matter if it's a clean shot or not, everyone instantly grabs their firearms and stands on one side of the fence or the other.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by fungchen3 View Post
    So, let me get this straight. My wife looks at this, laughs and thinks you're messing with me. Yet, you (a man) are getting all bent out of shape because I said Crosby is acting like a little girl and have gone on some outlandish tirade about how making a joke about Crosby is a direct correlation to giving women low self esteem, let alone endorsing mass rape and sex trafficking of women?? I'm through with this thread. If you (or anyone else) really gets offended or think I'm a dick because I said Crosby is acting like a little girl, so be it. I'm not sure how much you think you know about women, but I can tell you that every woman I know wouldn't not be offended in the least by what I said... and would probably ask you why you're acting like a little girl about it.

    Don't get all worked up over nonsense. Cheer up buddy. Cheers.
    Just because your wife doesn't recognize that your comments as disrespectful to women doesn't make you right ... it means that your wife is wrong, too. I thought you actually knew a thing or two about argumentation, but I guess I was wrong. Your crappy anecdotal evidence about "all the women you know" is just that. Crappy anecdotal evidence about women who haven't a clue. I'm very sorry to hear that none of the women you know understand the importance of feminism. It's truly a shame, and they're all doing themselves (and all women) a disservice. You know, women can contribute to the denigration of women, too. It's not exclusive to men. Sounds like your wife is a founding member of the He-Man Woman Haters Club without even knowing it. And that sucks.

    It's really too bad when the male-dominated world tricks women into believing all its BS. I'm sorry to hear that your wife is a victim of such tricks. Hopefully you two can get past it.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    Just because your wife doesn't recognize that your comments as disrespectful to women doesn't make you right ... it means that your wife is wrong, too. I thought you actually knew a thing or two about argumentation, but I guess I was wrong. Your crappy anecdotal evidence about "all the women you know" is just that. Crappy anecdotal evidence about women who haven't a clue. I'm very sorry to hear that none of the women you know understand the importance of feminism. It's truly a shame, and they're all doing themselves (and all women) a disservice. You know, women can contribute to the denigration of women, too. It's not exclusive to men. Sounds like your wife is a founding member of the He-Man Woman Haters Club without even knowing it. And that sucks.

    It's really too bad when the male-dominated world tricks women into believing all its BS. I'm sorry to hear that your wife is a victim of such tricks. Hopefully you two can get past it.
    Say what? Extreme feminism is in full effect in this thread. Make a joke about Sindy and all the skirts come running to her defense. Are you ragging, mounD? This should help.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Interesting arguments and thoughts in here.

    There may be indirect facilitations of certain injustices women continue to endure due to offhandedness with which some people throw around certain (and definitely some specific)verbiage and sayings.

    That being said, if I use the term "like a baby or like a girl" and a person draws a direct correlation to the crime of rape I would tell that person to go cut their **** off and **** themselves with it. We have a rape jar in this house, it's not a welcome word. I don't ask someone to watch their mouth if they make a comparison to a little girl, that's a big stretch.

    You have your right to your opinion, I to mine and Fungchen has every right to be bent out of shape for how far you chose to swing your pendulum in the attempt to make a point, which in turn made it seem, at least to me, inane. We are not burying women in sand and stoning them to death for talking to the wrong person. Do women's rights still have a ways to go? OF course. But this may not be the soapbox you're going to get the most value out of, evidently. I applaud your passion on the subject, but there's something to be said for picking your battles.


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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    We may not realize that the words we use have a profound impact on others, but when society continually "lessens" the importance of women, it registers with young women and girls. Would you want your daughter to feel like less of a human being because she has a vagina? I didn't think so ...
    Very well said. Thank you.

    I want my daughter to grow up in a world where she can go where she wants, do what she wants, and not feel limited or devalued because of her gender. I get that it's not fun to be criticized, and that it can seem ridiculous when you are suddenly getting shit for something that has always seemed harmless and commonplace. The first time I was hit with "What's wrong with girls?" when I was using the word "girl" to describe an insufficiently rugged man, it threw me for a loop too. "What...what? I didn't...what??? We're not talking about girls. We're talking about this delicate guy here." But you know, ultimately I realized that for my then girlfriend, who had a daughter, the idea of people trash-talking girls, even indirectly, and implying that feminity equals weakness, was a big issue. She didn't want her kid exposed to the notion that being a girl made her any less valuable, and now that I have a daughter of my own, I really get where she was coming from.

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spec7ral View Post
    Interesting arguments and thoughts in here.

    There may be indirect facilitations of certain injustices women continue to endure due to offhandedness with which some people throw around certain (and definitely some specific)verbiage and sayings.

    That being said, if I use the term "like a baby or like a girl" and a person draws a direct correlation to the crime of rape I would tell that person to go cut their **** off and **** themselves with it. We have a rape jar in this house, it's not a welcome word. I don't ask someone to watch their mouth if they make a comparison to a little girl, that's a big stretch.

    You have your right to your opinion, I to mine and Fungchen has every right to be bent out of shape for how far you chose to swing your pendulum in the attempt to make a point, which in turn made it seem, at least to me, inane. We are not burying women in sand and stoning them to death for talking to the wrong person. Do women's rights still have a ways to go? OF course. But this may not be the soapbox you're going to get the most value out of, evidently. I applaud your passion on the subject, but there's something to be said for picking your battles.


    Also, Crozzbrain is a ****ing powderpuff.
    I don't think mounD made the direct leap from terminology to rape. He brought up rape in response to the whole "It's okay because lots of people do it" argument. Probably a bad choice on his part, because it was misinterpreted and made things a lot messier than they needed to be, but I didn't get the sense that he was in anyway drawing a straight line between the two points, and saying that one is equal to, or a precursor to the other.

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    The way I look at it, lots of people tell sexist jokes, or use sexist terminology, and all the while they have great love and respect for the women in their lives. They are completely in support of equal rights for women. They mean no harm by the things they say, and in no way support behaviours that they consider harmful to women. Good guys tell shitty jokes.

    So, what's wrong with that? Two things:

    1) Are there impressionable young women/girls overhearing these things? Is it affecting how they value themselves as human beings? Is it effecting how safe, comfortable, and welcome they feel in the spaces they want to be in? If my kid gets into fantasy hockey when she is in her early teens and wants to visit the Dobber forums, is she going to feel that this is a place where she is welcome? Now you will say that whether or not she feels good about posting here is not going to make or break her long-term happiness, and you'd be right, but if she encounters similar limitations in many places, it starts to become a problem.

    2) Good guys can tell bad jokes all day, and it won't change how they act towards the people they are joking about. They can use "girl" in a derogatory sense all day, while still treating girls with great respect. However, throw a guy into the mix who is not so good. Now, he's hearing all the other guys say negative things about women, tell sexist jokes, etc. Do you think maybe it starts to rub off on him, and make him feel that his misogynist behaviour is okay? You know how a bunch of people pissed about the Canucks who would like to riot don't until someone gets them started, and helps them cross that psychological barrier between "That's illegal and wrong" and "**** yeah! I'm getting me some Nikes!"? I wonder if the guy who doesn't treat women like shit only because it's not the societal norm feels a little more like he can every time he is exposed to a crowd of normal, socially accepted, respectable guys saying things that they don't mean, but still line up really well with what he thinks.

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by fungchen3 View Post
    I wish I could find the video of Kevin Stevens and I think Rick Tocchet verbally destroying Brian Bellows back in the 90s. They were on the bench and he was lined up on the wing for a neutral zone face-off and they were killing him. Stevens kept saying, "keep flopping to the ice Bellows, like an effing broad." Then Tocchet chimed in. Good old fashioned hockey lip service... and the mics picked it all up lol.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    It's completely different when it's not a joke, and it's just something you're saying to make someone look bad -- here, Sidney Crosby being described as a girl. That's not comedy. Fungchen isn't a comedian, he's just some guy. Clearly not a very perceptive guy at that. What Fungchen said isn't comedy, it's subtle cues of patriarchy and sexism that inform the things we say and do, without even realizing that we're saying or doing them. I don't think that Fungchen is actively against women, let's make that clear. I'm sure he has respect for women, including his wife, etc. etc.; however, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Hell may not be a real place, but you get the picture.

    Until we actually TACKLE these issues, and face the quiet spectre of sex discrimination in ALL OF OUR LIVES, we have no hope of actually moving forward as equals in a free society. The things we say and do can be incredibly damaging to other people, and society as a whole; all I'm asking is that people recognize that and try to improve themselves so that we can all be happy and healthy and free. There's no sense defending a bigoted position ... it's only going to make you look like a bigot, even if you didn't mean it.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    I think mound just had a heart attack after watching that video

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed. View Post
    The way I look at it, lots of people tell sexist jokes, or use sexist terminology, and all the while they have great love and respect for the women in their lives. They are completely in support of equal rights for women. They mean no harm by the things they say, and in no way support behaviours that they consider harmful to women. Good guys tell shitty jokes.

    So, what's wrong with that? Two things:

    1) Are there impressionable young women/girls overhearing these things? Is it affecting how they value themselves as human beings? Is it effecting how safe, comfortable, and welcome they feel in the spaces they want to be in? If my kid gets into fantasy hockey when she is in her early teens and wants to visit the Dobber forums, is she going to feel that this is a place where she is welcome? Now you will say that whether or not she feels good about posting here is not going to make or break her long-term happiness, and you'd be right, but if she encounters similar limitations in many places, it starts to become a problem.

    2) Good guys can tell bad jokes all day, and it won't change how they act towards the people they are joking about. They can use "girl" in a derogatory sense all day, while still treating girls with great respect. However, throw a guy into the mix who is not so good. Now, he's hearing all the other guys say negative things about women, tell sexist jokes, etc. Do you think maybe it starts to rub off on him, and make him feel that his misogynist behaviour is okay? You know how a bunch of people pissed about the Canucks who would like to riot don't until someone gets them started, and helps them cross that psychological barrier between "That's illegal and wrong" and "**** yeah! I'm getting me some Nikes!"? I wonder if the guy who doesn't treat women like shit only because it's not the societal norm feels a little more like he can every time he is exposed to a crowd of normal, socially accepted, respectable guys saying things that they don't mean, but still line up really well with what he thinks.
    Thanks for sharing, Ed. It makes me very happy to see a thoughtful, informed post about these issues. Cheers.
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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Guru View Post
    I think mound just had a heart attack after watching that video
    BREAKING NEWS: Sports and Misogyny.

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    Just because your wife doesn't recognize that your comments as disrespectful to women doesn't make you right ... it means that your wife is wrong, too. I thought you actually knew a thing or two about argumentation, but I guess I was wrong. Your crappy anecdotal evidence about "all the women you know" is just that. Crappy anecdotal evidence about women who haven't a clue. I'm very sorry to hear that none of the women you know understand the importance of feminism. It's truly a shame, and they're all doing themselves (and all women) a disservice. You know, women can contribute to the denigration of women, too. It's not exclusive to men. Sounds like your wife is a founding member of the He-Man Woman Haters Club without even knowing it. And that sucks.

    It's really too bad when the male-dominated world tricks women into believing all its BS. I'm sorry to hear that your wife is a victim of such tricks. Hopefully you two can get past it.
    I'm sorry but this post annihilated my irony meter.

    It is such a good thing that you are here to tell fung's wife what to think because she clearly lacks the capacity to do so her self...
    /S

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    Default Re: For those who say, "Crosby Is NOT a Diver"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mounD View Post
    BREAKING NEWS: Sports and Misogyny.

    I'm not surprised; however, I am disappointed.
    Why are you surprised to see sports and misogyny in a hockey forum?

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