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Thread: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

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    Default I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    Hey everyone,

    I'm starting a new keeper and I want to make sure that I don't make any mistakes with format, categories, etc. I've already read the "Starting A Keeper" article under "Features" here on dobbersports a few times and it doesn't really answer my concerns. I've also been in a points-only keeper league run through officepools for the past 7 years and have done numerous one-year pools on Yahoo, so I'm not exactly a newbie when it comes to keepers/pools. I scoured old threads as well to get answers and I still have questions/concerns.

    Here's what I'm thinking:
    - I'm pretty sure we'll be using Yahoo for this keeper.
    - I read an article about categories on hockeypoolgeek.com that was really good, so I'm leaning more towards these categories: G, A, PPP, SOG, FOW, HIT, BLK, W, GAA, SV, SV%.
    - I'm struggling with roster positions but leaning towards something like this: 3C, 3LW, 3RW, 3F, 6D, 1G, 6 BENCH = 25 PLAYERS

    Here are my primary concerns:
    1) Should it be Points-based, ROTO, H2H (if H2H, which one?)?
    2) How will goalies be valued in this system? Too low compared to skaters? I don't want a goalie-heavy format but I also don't want goalies to be insignificant.

    Thanks for the help!

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    I'm a big fan of H2H Each Category Keeper leagues. I really like your setup. I might add +/- to the skater categories and Saves to the goalie cat's. Make it 8 skater cat's to 5 goalie cat's. Nice setup.

    GMHL Dynasty
    14 Team H2H 27-Pro/20-Farm
    4C, 4LW, 4RW, 6D, 2G, 7BN, 4IR+
    G, A, PTS, +/-, PIM, PPP, GWG,SOG, HITS, BLKS
    W, GAA, SV, SV%, SHO

    C: Tavares, Barkov, Malkin, Nielsen, Zibanejad
    LW: Lucic, Benn, Tatar, Fleischmann
    RW: Johansen, Tarasenko, Downie, Perron
    D: Doughty, Chara, Yandle, Edler, Seidenberg, Brodin, Wideman, Kulikov, Robidas
    G: Niemi, Nabokov, Mason, Emery, Reimer

    Farm: Lazar, Nieto, Pulkkinen, Compher, Fiala, Vrana, Barber, Pastrnak, Larkin, McCann, Rattie, Rakell, Salomaki, Connelly, Keranen, Clendening, Borowiecki, Matheson, de Haan, Carrick, Gillies, Nilsson-KHL, Dansk, Stalock

    Picks Owned:
    2015: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd


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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
    I'm leaning more towards these categories: G, A, PPP, SOG, FOW, HIT, BLK, W, GAA, SV, SV%.
    - I'm struggling with roster positions but leaning towards something like this: 3C, 3LW, 3RW, 3F, 6D, 1G, 6 BENCH = 25 PLAYERS

    Here are my primary concerns:
    1) Should it be Points-based, ROTO, H2H (if H2H, which one?)?
    2) How will goalies be valued in this system? Too low compared to skaters? I don't want a goalie-heavy format but I also don't want goalies to be insignificant.

    Thanks for the help!
    For goalies, plug in 3 scenarios and present the Top 100 players under each scenario to the other owners and have them vote. You don't want the top 10 point getters to all be goalies, but you don't want it to all be forwards, too. Need balance. If it's roto or h2h then you should try to get close to 7 and 3 for skates vs goalies. You have 7 and 4 there, that's not bad either. 6 and 4 is where it gets to be too goalie-heavy IMO. If it's points only, don't use GAA or SV%. Use GA and SV

    1) depends on how serious your owners are. Points if not serious, H2H if hyper-serious, roto in the middle-serious


    And finally - for rosters go with W instead of RW/LW. WAY easier to track, less headache, less arguing...if you went RW and LW, then as soon as Joe Blow the RW plays a shift on LW his owner will be crying to you about giving him dual eligibility. So just give them all dual elig.
    The Best Fantasy Hockey Site

    15-Team Keeper, points only, best 12 fwd, 4 dman, 2 G count. Playoffs count.

    F - T. Thompson, Thomas, Nylander, Tarasenko, Arvidsson, Guentzel, Fiala, Quinn, Mittelstadt, Hagel, Zacha, Roslovic, Berggren, Brink, Ostlund
    G - Kahkonen, Vejmelka, L. Thompson, Levi, Comrie
    D - Hronek, Morrissey, Lundkvist, Girard, Brannstrom, Rathbone, Hanifin, Severson, Durzi

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    The other thing I might consider is Fantrax as opposed to Yahoo for your league host, in my opinion, its far superior, a little less user friendly perhaps but a more sophisticated set-up. I wouls also recommend deep minor leagues, 25-30 so as to allow owners to really track and study minor league prospects.

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    H2H is great for keeping more people interested longer, because they don't have to be within striking distance of first place to be motivated. They just have to be within striking distance of the final playoff spot. That said, you don't necessarily get the true winner of the league, so much as you get the guy who had the best luck in the last three weeks as your winner. I am cool with that, because it keeps things far more exciting, but it does tilt the balance of game of skill vs game of chance a lot more to the chance side of things.

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    I'd consider special team points, as opposed to power play points, but that's just a personal preference.

    With respect to goalies, I can tell you that I'm in a 20-team league with a deep farm system (30 players) and very liberal rules for minor league status (Less than 135 GP for any position, including goalies). The net result of this is players like Curtis McElhinney (30 years old, drafted in 2002, has been in the league since 2007) still could have another 2 or 3 years of minor league eligibility. It makes the goalie market insane, as they are hoarded. The best you can hope to find on the wire in our league is a back up ECHL goalie. So if you go the deep farm system route, I'd just keep this in mind.

    Good luck.

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    Goalie weight should be 25% (min) to 40% (max) of league scoring.
    So, having a 7/4 category split means:
    Skaters = 63.6%
    Goalies = 36.3%
    That's not too bad, but I personally prefer 8/4 or 9/4 (preferred) as category splits.

    My favourite one-year league and my favourite keeper league both use 9 categories for skaters:
    G, A, +-, PPP, SOG, PIM... HIT, BLK, FOW
    The three you could consider dropping are: PIM (really, not a "positive" stat... but FUN! oh my), +- (personal preference... I think it's a very valuable stat), FOW (because Yahoo has been historically awful with single-position designation)
    SCORING should be the heaviest weighting in fantasy hockey... so you may even want to consider adding P ["points"] since it weights the scoring aspect even more.
    This isn't popular in most leagues because it is seen as "redundant", but I think it makes fantasy rosters LOOK a little more like the way a GM would build them.

    With goalies, 4 or 5 categories is good.
    My keeper includes shutouts (SO), but I'm actually not a big fan of that.
    There's no real-NHL bonus for a shutout win vs. a regular win... so why do it in fantasy hockey.


    Recommendations:
    IF your league is 14 teams or less... go with TWO starting goalies slots.
    One goalie spot is only something I'd recommend in 16+ team leagues.
    Many people who set up a 1G league do it because they want to make a "Real NHL team" look.

    From experience, it is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more fun to roster 2G in starting spots.
    Yes... I know that doesn't mimic a real NHL team... but the FUN factor is why we play fantasy hockey!!!

    Do NOT do points.
    I hate/loathe "points leagues".
    Why? Because the GMs that will be best in point-leagues are "mathematicians"... not hockey fans.
    They'll pay for a subscription to fantasy hockey geek or make their own Excel files.

    In a GOOD fantasy hockey league, the smartest "hockey guys" should have a GOOD chance at beating a "mathematician" with minimal hockey knowledge.

    Perfect H2H league, IMO: 12 teams. 9F/4D/2G or 12F/6D/2G +3-to-5 bench. 8/4 or 9/4 category split. 22 weeks regular season (11 opponents x 2 matches each). 3 week playoff, with top TWO teams getting a BYE.
    Perfect Roto league, IMO: 12-14 teams. 9F/4D/2G or 12F/6D/2G +3-to-5 bench. 8/4 or 9/4 category split. 82 GP max per roster spot.

    In PARTIAL-KEEPER leagues, the "Keeper Number" should be HALF (~50%) the starting roster.
    If you have 20 starting roster spots, Keep 10. Redraft 10-15.

    Leagues that keep 30% or less, experience VERY unbalanced trades in 2nd half of the season.
    Leagues that keep 70% or more, are not fun to have redrafts in.

    Good luck.

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    Wow guys, thanks for the comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCity14 View Post
    I'm a big fan of H2H Each Category Keeper leagues. I really like your setup. I might add +/- to the skater categories and Saves to the goalie cat's. Make it 8 skater cat's to 5 goalie cat's. Nice setup.
    I like the idea of H2H Each Category as well. I'm on the fence with +/- in fantasy hockey. I think because there are many variables. I have to look into it more I guess. Also, I already have Saves as a goalie cat. Thanks

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dobber View Post
    For goalies, plug in 3 scenarios and present the Top 100 players under each scenario to the other owners and have them vote. You don't want the top 10 point getters to all be goalies, but you don't want it to all be forwards, too. Need balance. If it's roto or h2h then you should try to get close to 7 and 3 for skates vs goalies. You have 7 and 4 there, that's not bad either. 6 and 4 is where it gets to be too goalie-heavy IMO. If it's points only, don't use GAA or SV%. Use GA and SV

    1) depends on how serious your owners are. Points if not serious, H2H if hyper-serious, roto in the middle-serious


    And finally - for rosters go with W instead of RW/LW. WAY easier to track, less headache, less arguing...if you went RW and LW, then as soon as Joe Blow the RW plays a shift on LW his owner will be crying to you about giving him dual eligibility. So just give them all dual elig.

    Hey Dobber, thanks a lot for the reply.

    As for your suggestion of creating 3 scenarios with the Top 100, is there a website that can calculate that easily or do I have to gather all that data and do it manually? I agree, I am looking for a balance between goalies and skaters.

    Is the position eligibility that much of a headache? I just assumed the league would take the positions that Yahoo designates to the players as gospel and run with that. The idea of splitting LW & RW is intriguing, but I also don't want to run into any complications down the road.

    Thanks a lot for the comments.

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by ltcompton View Post
    The other thing I might consider is Fantrax as opposed to Yahoo for your league host, in my opinion, its far superior, a little less user friendly perhaps but a more sophisticated set-up. I wouls also recommend deep minor leagues, 25-30 so as to allow owners to really track and study minor league prospects.
    Thanks for the reply.

    I've considered using Fantrax over Yahoo but from what I've researched, it seems like Fantrax is better for more sophisticated/intricate leagues with a very custom set-up. Whereas, I think for the type of league I want to create, which is not too complicated, Yahoo may be the better option.

    What do you think?

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed. View Post
    H2H is great for keeping more people interested longer, because they don't have to be within striking distance of first place to be motivated. They just have to be within striking distance of the final playoff spot. That said, you don't necessarily get the true winner of the league, so much as you get the guy who had the best luck in the last three weeks as your winner. I am cool with that, because it keeps things far more exciting, but it does tilt the balance of game of skill vs game of chance a lot more to the chance side of things.
    Thanks for the reply, Ed. You definitely hit some of my concerns.

    The one big thing that irritates me about H2H is that entire playoff setup because, like you said, does it make sense that a 3-week playoff determines the winner? The season is much longer and it seems like it's almost a crapshoot by leaving it in the hands of the playoffs to determine the winner.

    I'm sure there are ways to get around that though. I could implement a rule where the winner of the regular season gets the majority of the purse and the rest of it could go to the winner of the playoffs. Would that work/make sense?

    Also, as for motivation, I have a problem with that in the points-only league I'm in right now, so I've come up with a couple rules that I think may help. First of all, depending on the amount of teams in the league, I'd like to see the total winnings divided between more teams. The keeper pool I'm in now only does 2 spots, 2nd gets money back and 1st gets the rest. Ideally I'd like to see 8 or more teams with a $50 buy-in and have 1st get $250, 2nd get $100 and 3rd get $50, or some variation of that. Hopefully that will get more people motivated to be competitive longer and, for example, fight to get to 3rd from 4th instead of just doing nothing and standing pat.

    Another rule I'm thinking about implementing is a draft lottery. We don't have one in our league and I find that teams would rather finish last and get the 1st overall pick than finish 3rd or 4th. If the last place team isn't guaranteed the best pick in the draft maybe they won't be so willing to drop in the standings?

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    This!! All of it!


    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    Goalie weight should be 25% (min) to 40% (max) of league scoring.
    So, having a 7/4 category split means:
    Skaters = 63.6%
    Goalies = 36.3%
    That's not too bad, but I personally prefer 8/4 or 9/4 (preferred) as category splits.

    My favourite one-year league and my favourite keeper league both use 9 categories for skaters:
    G, A, +-, PPP, SOG, PIM... HIT, BLK, FOW
    The three you could consider dropping are: PIM (really, not a "positive" stat... but FUN! oh my), +- (personal preference... I think it's a very valuable stat), FOW (because Yahoo has been historically awful with single-position designation)
    SCORING should be the heaviest weighting in fantasy hockey... so you may even want to consider adding P ["points"] since it weights the scoring aspect even more.
    This isn't popular in most leagues because it is seen as "redundant", but I think it makes fantasy rosters LOOK a little more like the way a GM would build them.

    With goalies, 4 or 5 categories is good.
    My keeper includes shutouts (SO), but I'm actually not a big fan of that.
    There's no real-NHL bonus for a shutout win vs. a regular win... so why do it in fantasy hockey.


    Recommendations:
    IF your league is 14 teams or less... go with TWO starting goalies slots.
    One goalie spot is only something I'd recommend in 16+ team leagues.
    Many people who set up a 1G league do it because they want to make a "Real NHL team" look.

    From experience, it is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more fun to roster 2G in starting spots.
    Yes... I know that doesn't mimic a real NHL team... but the FUN factor is why we play fantasy hockey!!!

    Do NOT do points.
    I hate/loathe "points leagues".
    Why? Because the GMs that will be best in point-leagues are "mathematicians"... not hockey fans.
    They'll pay for a subscription to fantasy hockey geek or make their own Excel files.

    In a GOOD fantasy hockey league, the smartest "hockey guys" should have a GOOD chance at beating a "mathematician" with minimal hockey knowledge.

    Perfect H2H league, IMO: 12 teams. 9F/4D/2G or 12F/6D/2G +3-to-5 bench. 8/4 or 9/4 category split. 22 weeks regular season (11 opponents x 2 matches each). 3 week playoff, with top TWO teams getting a BYE.
    Perfect Roto league, IMO: 12-14 teams. 9F/4D/2G or 12F/6D/2G +3-to-5 bench. 8/4 or 9/4 category split. 82 GP max per roster spot.

    In PARTIAL-KEEPER leagues, the "Keeper Number" should be HALF (~50%) the starting roster.
    If you have 20 starting roster spots, Keep 10. Redraft 10-15.

    Leagues that keep 30% or less, experience VERY unbalanced trades in 2nd half of the season.
    Leagues that keep 70% or more, are not fun to have redrafts in.

    Good luck.

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by als_revenge View Post
    I'd consider special team points, as opposed to power play points, but that's just a personal preference.

    With respect to goalies, I can tell you that I'm in a 20-team league with a deep farm system (30 players) and very liberal rules for minor league status (Less than 135 GP for any position, including goalies). The net result of this is players like Curtis McElhinney (30 years old, drafted in 2002, has been in the league since 2007) still could have another 2 or 3 years of minor league eligibility. It makes the goalie market insane, as they are hoarded. The best you can hope to find on the wire in our league is a back up ECHL goalie. So if you go the deep farm system route, I'd just keep this in mind.

    Good luck.
    Thanks for the reply.

    When you say "special team points" I'm assuming you mean SHP in addition to PPP? I'm on the fence with SHP as well. I think it's because in relation to the other categories, it doesn't happen that often. But I see what you mean.

    I definitely will keep the deep farm system in mind, because, like you said, I don't want goalies to be hoarded to the point where we even have to draft McElhinney lol. I'd prefer if he wasn't in this league lol. I don't want to thin out the available talent pool from year to year too much because I think you need more serious GMs, ones who are willing to REALLY do research, for that to be fun.

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    Goalie weight should be 25% (min) to 40% (max) of league scoring.
    So, having a 7/4 category split means:
    Skaters = 63.6%
    Goalies = 36.3%
    That's not too bad, but I personally prefer 8/4 or 9/4 (preferred) as category splits.

    My favourite one-year league and my favourite keeper league both use 9 categories for skaters:
    G, A, +-, PPP, SOG, PIM... HIT, BLK, FOW
    The three you could consider dropping are: PIM (really, not a "positive" stat... but FUN! oh my), +- (personal preference... I think it's a very valuable stat), FOW (because Yahoo has been historically awful with single-position designation)
    SCORING should be the heaviest weighting in fantasy hockey... so you may even want to consider adding P ["points"] since it weights the scoring aspect even more.
    This isn't popular in most leagues because it is seen as "redundant", but I think it makes fantasy rosters LOOK a little more like the way a GM would build them.

    With goalies, 4 or 5 categories is good.
    My keeper includes shutouts (SO), but I'm actually not a big fan of that.
    There's no real-NHL bonus for a shutout win vs. a regular win... so why do it in fantasy hockey.


    Recommendations:
    IF your league is 14 teams or less... go with TWO starting goalies slots.
    One goalie spot is only something I'd recommend in 16+ team leagues.
    Many people who set up a 1G league do it because they want to make a "Real NHL team" look.

    From experience, it is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more fun to roster 2G in starting spots.
    Yes... I know that doesn't mimic a real NHL team... but the FUN factor is why we play fantasy hockey!!!

    Do NOT do points.
    I hate/loathe "points leagues".
    Why? Because the GMs that will be best in point-leagues are "mathematicians"... not hockey fans.
    They'll pay for a subscription to fantasy hockey geek or make their own Excel files.

    In a GOOD fantasy hockey league, the smartest "hockey guys" should have a GOOD chance at beating a "mathematician" with minimal hockey knowledge.

    Perfect H2H league, IMO: 12 teams. 9F/4D/2G or 12F/6D/2G +3-to-5 bench. 8/4 or 9/4 category split. 22 weeks regular season (11 opponents x 2 matches each). 3 week playoff, with top TWO teams getting a BYE.
    Perfect Roto league, IMO: 12-14 teams. 9F/4D/2G or 12F/6D/2G +3-to-5 bench. 8/4 or 9/4 category split. 82 GP max per roster spot.

    In PARTIAL-KEEPER leagues, the "Keeper Number" should be HALF (~50%) the starting roster.
    If you have 20 starting roster spots, Keep 10. Redraft 10-15.

    Leagues that keep 30% or less, experience VERY unbalanced trades in 2nd half of the season.
    Leagues that keep 70% or more, are not fun to have redrafts in.

    Good luck.

    Wow man. This is amazing lol. Where's the damn rep button in this new place...

    Anyways, about some of your points:
    - your comment on 8/4 or 9/4, is it not better to go with an odd number to prevent ties? So I guess 9/4 would be better?
    - the PIM, +/-, FOW comment is definitely something I'll have to think about. I think a lot of these choices come down to personal preference. Personally, I'm not a big fan of PIM in fantasy hockey, or at least that's not what I really want in this league. Also, I'm on the fence with +/-. I've read about the P category and pros/cons of it and I think I agree with you in that it puts more of an emphasis on scoring even though it is redundant.
    - I like the idea of having G, A, PPP, SOG, FOW, HIT, BLK, but I'd like to get it to 9 as you suggested. Out of PIM, +/- and P I like P the most so I can include that, but now I need the 9th cat. Either PIM or +/-. That's definitely something I'll have to really think about.
    - I agree with your SHO comment
    - THANK YOU for the 2 goalie comment. I can confidently say that this league will never get to 16+ teams. I'm thinking we might even have 6-8 to start. Also, the thing I like about the 2G setup is that if we ever did get to 16 teams, wouldn't it be a pretty simple adjustment to go down to 1G? It's seems like it would be easier to make that transition than doing the reverse.
    - I COMPLETELY agree with your points-only comment. In fact, the entire reason I'm creating this pool is because I'm sick of the points-only pool that I'm in now lol. I find the strategy the same ever year. We have a guy who won back-to-back titles and we call him The Accountant lol.
    - Your perfect H2H & ROTO comment is awesome. I have a lot of thinking to do lol. Although, like I mentioned in a post above, doesn't it bother you that the winner in a H2H is determined by a 3-week playoff? Especially after going through the entire season? I'm having trouble coming to grips with that.
    - Your "Keeper Number" comment seems bang on. Working with percentages when it comes to this is genius. Never even considered to think of it that way. So, I guess ~50% as a keep percentage would be best?

    Sorry for the long reply. I just felt like giving your amazing post the attention it deserved. Thanks again, Pengwin7.

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    Default Re: I'm Starting A Keeper and Need Advice. PLS Help!

    Here's another question: is it better to put a max on add/drops or games played or both? If I put a max add/drop amount to 4 per week, is it necessary to have a max games played as well?

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