A Question About H2H Scoring Balance

[The Guvnah]

This year, the one-year league I was in last year is switching to a keeper league with some different scoring cats. You can see the previous year's scoring in my sig. We've added more scoring cats to make it more interesting/challenging:

G (3), A (2), +/- (1), PIM (0.2), PPG (1), SHG (2), GWG (1), FOW (0.1), HAT (3)

I have issues with two things -- most importantly, FOW. Is 0.1 per FOW too much? When I look at the most valuable players from last year with the new scoring, Centers are far and away the most valuable, with Toews ranking at number one. Should FOW be valued at maybe 0.05 or something? Secondly, I'm not sure SHG should be worth 2 pts given that it can be such a random stat.

Anyway, I'm just putting the question out to you, the Dobber faithful because well, I have faith in (some of) your opinions! :P

[Shoeless]

Well yeah in a league where 5 skater categories out of 9 are based on goals only - FOW being worth 0.1 does seems out of whack. Perhaps something for goals directly off the faceoff would be a better fit for your league.

I suggest you guys think about lots more than FOW values - like MSL scored 60 points in 48 games last season - 17 were goals - his value in this league you are setting up definitely would not be top 25 or so.

[horrorfan]

This year, the one-year league I was in last year is switching to a keeper league with some different scoring cats. You can see the previous year's scoring in my sig. We've added more scoring cats to make it more interesting/challenging:

G (3), A (2), +/- (1), PIM (0.2), PPG (1), SHG (2), GWG (1), FOW (0.1), HAT (3)

I have issues with two things -- most importantly, FOW. Is 0.1 per FOW too much? When I look at the most valuable players from last year with the new scoring, Centers are far and away the most valuable, with Toews ranking at number one. Should FOW be valued at maybe 0.05 or something? Secondly, I'm not sure SHG should be worth 2 pts given that it can be such a random stat.

Anyway, I'm just putting the question out to you, the Dobber faithful because well, I have faith in (some of) your opinions! :P

Given that it's mid-August I wonder how much time you have to finalise the settings. Because for me, I think the first thing you need to do (before assigning values) is to determine how you want the different players valued against each other. This is not just about centres having more points than wingers, who'll have more points than defence etc. It's about looking at tiers, depth, likely waiver replacement players compared to the top guys etc.

For example, you mention that with this FOW value, centres are clearly the top players. Well, given that you have FOW as a stat, I would expect it. However, the questions should be:

- How much higher are centres than wingers?
- How valuable are depth/FA centres compared to higher wingers?
- Is this the right balance?

A simple example would be - if the top 30 centres ranged from 500 to 400 points, and the top 30 wingers (grouping them just for this example) ranged from 200 to 150, then there would be an imbalance. However, if the top 30 centres ranged from 300 to 240 and the top 30 wingers ranged from 250 to 200 then it's not too bad because I would expect centres to have more points due to FOW being included.

Another thing to consider is your provider and how they assign positions, especially dual eligibility. Yahoo, for example, has been a bit crazy in awarding extra positions and some aren't totally correct so you see a lot of centres (or partial winger/centre) who take plenty of face offs. That would have a major effect on player evaluation and I would be careful with having too much emphasised on it.

Shoeless makes a good point about goal scorers as well, and their impact on their overall value. Is that intentional? MSL is a good test example and would be interested to see where he slotted in, relative to other top wingers. I wouldn't want to see someone like Vrbata or Ryder have similar value to MSL. Extreme example, but you get the point.

This next point is more due to my own preferences, but why do you have GWG, SHG and HAT as categories? Do you want to reward players who achieve one of these random stats? Personally I don't see the point, however given that it's about total points, it doesn't hurt as it would rarely happen so the weekly matchup would not be affected much. GWG occurs a bit more but it's such a fluky, random stat that to me it seems pointless to include.

Once you have an idea on how you want players to compare to each other (within and outwith positions), then you start tinkering with the scoring system to find the best fit. That includes goalies, which I would expect to have the highest point totals, given that only two start and you want to ensure they have some value. The question is - by how much?

While your tinkering with the values, have a look to see if any players who appear to be outliers (whether too high or too low). Then you tinker some more. It's not easy to come up with a perfect system, however the more time you spend on it the best it will be for your league, especially since it's a keeper and you should look to have some stability in the settings whenever possible.

[LawMan]

Great post by horrorfan. You really need to consider what type of player you want to be ranked high and then craft your scoring around it. If it was me I would make the following alterations:

Change PPG to PPP or set a separate value for PPG and PPA. Change SHG to SHP. In head-to-head I don't like SHP to be their own category but in points I like them, especially considering a PPP is worth extra a SHP should be as well.

eliminate GWG. GWG is the most random stat and doesn't measure anything but luck IMO. Hat tricks is fine in points league as it will rarely hit and a player should score a bonus for such a dominating game.

Elminiate FOW or, if possible, have + for FOW and - for FOL. I understand that winning faceoffs is key in hockey but I have 2 problems with FOW in fantasy hockey:

1. Position eligibilty. Inevitably a key to winning this league is going to be to have wing eligible centres. Eric Staal, Malkin, Giroux, these guys are centres and take every faceoff however when slotted in on the wing is key but ruins the point.
2. There's no FOL. A good comparison is +/- where doing good gets you points but bad costs you points, almost every league I see has FOW without acknowleding FOL. The problem is highlited by RNH, a solid centre but terrible at FO's, last year he only won 41% and lost 99 more than he won, but under your scoring it doesn't matter because he's still counted with 226 FOW. Having only FOW is like having only "+" but not "-" in my opinion.

[The Guvnah]

I agree very much with what you guys are saying. Unfortunately, I was unable to attend our end of season party where the rules for next season were decided and thus was unable to have any real input into the decisions being made. I hate GWG as a stat and would have had it axed, and I would have added PPP and SHP as opposed to PPG and SHG. It's really a goal scorers league at the moment with too much randomness and rewards centers too heavily. Looking at last year, St. Louis would have been the 19th ranked skater, while Derek Stepan sits at 7th. That ain't right. I'm going to have to put in a hard push to get some stats changed up. At the very least FOW needs less value.

Top 30 C: Toews (219.3) to Lecavalier (120.2)
Top 30 LW: Kunitz (184.2) to Schenn (79.4)
Top 30 RW: St. Louis (149.0) to Clarkson (84.2)

Looking at the above, it's not AWFUL but I'm still not comfortable with it.

[horrorfan]

I agree very much with what you guys are saying. Unfortunately, I was unable to attend our end of season party where the rules for next season were decided and thus was unable to have any real input into the decisions being made. I hate GWG as a stat and would have had it axed, and I would have added PPP and SHP as opposed to PPG and SHG. It's really a goal scorers league at the moment with too much randomness and rewards centers too heavily. Looking at last year, St. Louis would have been the 19th ranked skater, while Derek Stepan sits at 7th. That ain't right. I'm going to have to put in a hard push to get some stats changed up. At the very least FOW needs less value.

Top 30 C: Toews (219.3) to Lecavalier (120.2)
Top 30 LW: Kunitz (184.2) to Schenn (79.4)
Top 30 RW: St. Louis (149.0) to Clarkson (84.2)

Looking at the above, it's not AWFUL but I'm still not comfortable with it.

Yeah those look a bit skewed. Especially since Kunitz's season might have been a bit of an anomaly; most of the remaining top LW I would gather were in the 130-150 range?

Definitely open up the discussion during the season, but rather than just criticising them (since you weren't there for the discussion) but to show positives for your ideas. Even ask in the first instance why specific values were chosen. Perhaps they'll consider it - a good league IMO regularly considers tinkering with settings if there's enough valid reasons to do so, with constructive feedback from everyone.

In the meantime, you'll have to use this to your advantage and try to identify where there's value to help you to become successful. Good luck.

[The Guvnah]

Yeah those look a bit skewed. Especially since Kunitz's season might have been a bit of an anomaly; most of the remaining top LW I would gather were in the 130-150 range?

Definitely open up the discussion during the season, but rather than just criticising them (since you weren't there for the discussion) but to show positives for your ideas. Even ask in the first instance why specific values were chosen. Perhaps they'll consider it - a good league IMO regularly considers tinkering with settings if there's enough valid reasons to do so, with constructive feedback from everyone.

In the meantime, you'll have to use this to your advantage and try to identify where there's value to help you to become successful. Good luck.

Yeah, I spoke with the commish at a family BBQ today (he's my bro-in-law lol) and he's on board with at least switching to PPP and SHP. He's still standing ground on FOW at 0.1, but I told him to take a look at the numbers and at the very least I think we'll get a league vote out of it.

Thanks to all who responded!

[horrorfan]

Yeah, I spoke with the commish at a family BBQ today (he's my bro-in-law lol) and he's on board with at least switching to PPP and SHP. He's still standing ground on FOW at 0.1, but I told him to take a look at the numbers and at the very least I think we'll get a league vote out of it.

Thanks to all who responded!

So he didn't actually look at the numbers before he assigned the values?

At least he's willing to consider change, and that's good that it'll be slightly less goal heavy. Any reasoning behind G=3 and A=2?