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Thread: Dobber Pro Leagues

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobber View Post
    There won't be anything organized through myself this year, I'll explain more in the ramblings, but this took a lot of thought and weighing of time & energy. I just can't do it. Sorry
    That's too bad and I completely understand. Heck, I've already removed myself from being commissioner in one league, so I can appreciate the amount of work this whole thing takes.

    Have you contacted others who might be interested in taking over the organising of it? It would be a real shame if this were to be shut down altogether. As it's mid-August, if it were to be kept going then it should be sorted quite soon so people can plan for it.
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    I really hope someone picks up the mantle too - I finally got my shot at Tier III and won my division, so I've been reading here and there all summer to get even better acquainted with the cats.

    Plus, I will have to live vicariously through my pools this year - I'm living overseas this coming year, and regular game times are 1 am, and 4 am on the west coast, so I'm not likely to see much more than the occasional Sunday matinee (6pm here), and perhaps a couple of Franšais Volants games - yup, that's right, Division Two of the highly touted FFHG. Damn.
    20-Team Keeper League
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    Starting roster: 6F, 3D, 1G, *Keep 12 - temp keep 14 after Contraction Draft

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccsitdown View Post
    I really hope someone picks up the mantle too - I finally got my shot at Tier III and won my division, so I've been reading here and there all summer to get even better acquainted with the cats.

    Plus, I will have to live vicariously through my pools this year - I'm living overseas this coming year, and regular game times are 1 am, and 4 am on the west coast, so I'm not likely to see much more than the occasional Sunday matinee (6pm here), and perhaps a couple of Franšais Volants games - yup, that's right, Division Two of the highly touted FFHG. Damn.
    You and I both - the extent of my live hockey over here is occasionally watching the British Elite League. 'Elite' being used very loosely, especially with regards to Edinburgh. The extent of watching NHL is finding the occasional free stream online during a weekend - likely Sunday as you mentioned. But lately I haven't bothered much other than the playoffs.

    In the ramblings, Pengwin put his name forward as an organiser so he might have a crack at running the Entry Invitational. If so, I'm sure he'll do a great job. Not sure how that affects the Pro and Expert leagues, though. Fingers crossed that they'll all continue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by horrorfan View Post
    In the ramblings, Pengwin put his name forward as an organiser so he might have a crack at running the Entry Invitational. If so, I'm sure he'll do a great job. Not sure how that affects the Pro and Expert leagues, though. Fingers crossed that they'll all continue.

    My new proposed leagues for 2013-2014 (constantly being tweaked):

    Tier I: All-Star ELITE LEAGUE (15)
    (11)to(13) Return Invites from Elite League 2012-2013 (i.e. writers/contributors & past pool winners that moved up)
    +(2)or(1) 1st-2nd from Wales Conference 2012-2013
    +(2)or(1) 1st-2nd from Campbell Conference 2012-2013
    *BOTTOM 4 are RELEGATED EACH YEAR

    Tier II: Wales Conference PRO LEAGUE (15)
    (8) 3rd-10th from Wales Conference 2012-2013 [Bottom two from last season demoted]
    (3) Top three from Adams Division 2012-2013
    (3) Top three from Patrick Division 2012-2013
    +(1) TBD
    *TOP 2 are PROMOTED EACH YEAR
    *BOTTOM 4 are RELEGATED EACH YEAR


    Tier II: Campbell Conference PRO LEAGUE (15)
    (8) 3rd-10th from Campbell Conference 2012-2013 [Bottom two from last season demoted]
    (3) Top three from Norris Division 2012-2013
    (3) Top three from Smythe Division 2012-2013
    +(1) TBD
    *TOP 2 are PROMOTED EACH YEAR
    *BOTTOM 4 are RELEGATED EACH YEAR


    Tier III: Adams(15), Patrick(15), Norris(15), Smythe(15)
    THIS YEAR:
    (1) Demoted from Wales/Campbell
    (2) 4th/5th maintain INVITE.
    (12) Invites based on "post count". [I'd like to reward active forum members for the value they bring to each other's fantasy knowledge.]
    [In other words, the top 48 forum members (excluding those in Tier I or Tier II), by post count, would receive an invite. If anybody declines, the 49th highest-post-count would get invite, etc.]
    FUTURE YEARS:
    (2) Demoted from Wales/Campbell
    (3) 3rd/4th/5th maintain INVITE.
    (x) Automatic entry for any winner of a Tier IV league (infinite amount).
    (11-x) Invited based on "post count".
    *TOP 2 are PROMOTED EACH YEAR

    Tier IV: Unlimited divisions, each x15.
    Basically, any interested person (that doesn't make the Tier III) cut-off could enter a Tier IV pool of 15 persons. Top finisher in any division gets automatic entry to Tier III in future year.
    *This Tier means that EVERYBODY that is interested can play in a qualification league.
    *I would create a "no trading" rule in these leagues though... because I don't want an infinite amount of leagues to oversee.
    Last edited by Pengwin7; August 23, 2013 at 10:57 AM.

  5. #20
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    So, the reason you're allowing the top three in the entry leagues to be promoted to the pros is because you finished third, eh?

    Well thought out setup and I'm on board. I haven't thought of the impact of the tiers below yet, but perhaps allow more of the writers to stay in tier one, say top four instead of two, and promote four from the pro leagues? The numbers can be adjusted a bit so just an example. The point is that I feel your suggestion is quite a drastic change over one season and maybe this will allow for a bit more transition, and allow those who have done well enough in the top tier to remain there for at least another year.

    As for using post count for invites into tier three, yeah that will be a hot topic. But at least you are still allowing others to join in tier four, so it softens the blow a bit, as it's not punishing newcomers. I can understand why you're doing it, and as was the entry leagues this year, the winner will be promoted.

    One thing I don't like is the 'no trading' option in tier four. Why can't you have a designated commissioner (who's already in the league) to oversee each league like last season, to make sure trades go through promptly and ensure it runs smoothly? Having this rule takes away a big part of leagues, and since it's part of the tier system, the settings should be the same for all. I actually think it would put people off joining if they knew there was no trading.
    Last edited by horrorfan; August 22, 2013 at 2:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by horrorfan View Post
    Well thought out setup and I'm on board. I haven't thought of the impact of the tiers below yet, but perhaps allow more of the writers to stay in tier one, say top four instead of two, and promote four from the pro leagues? The numbers can be adjusted a bit so just an example. The point is that I feel your suggestion is quite a drastic change over one season and maybe this will allow for a bit more transition, and allow those who have done well enough in the top tier to remain there for at least another year.

    One thing I don't like is the 'no trading' option in tier four. Why can't you have a designated commissioner to oversee each league like last season, to make sure trades go through promptly and ensure it runs smoothly? Having this rule takes away a big part of leagues, and since it's part of the tier system, the settings should be the same for all.

    re: Tier I. I know mabus & smack worked their way up to that division (from reading previous threads) so they should be allowed to be in Tier I, if they finished high enough, or Tier II (worst case). But to be in true "Tier I"... somebody should be a "past winner". They should have to earn their way up the ladder and not just be grandfathered in. But the numbers could be modified. This is just a discussion starter.

    re: Tier IV. Consistency is indeed important. And there really needs to be one consistent overseeing person to review trades. I think last year that was Gates. But if there is, say, 11 tier IV divisions, I don't think having 11 commissioners is a good idea. I don't want to talk to 11 commissioners if there is a problem. However, if somebody (this is where you can raise your hand?) wants to act as the person to select a commissioner and deal with their questions... then that is fine.

    Even though it is given a Tier position... I think Tier IV can be run completely differently (no trading).

    Some explanation into "No Trading":
    When there is no relegation in a league, you can see people just bail on their team or make stupid trades.

    We've all read the "Veto or no veto" threads.
    I want to avoid this is one-year leagues where no penalty exists for making a bad trade.

    Also, I don't intend on making Tier IV divisions myself.
    I'd set up a googledocs lists with 15 slots and people could sign-up in any division they want, draft time would be posted.
    The downside of this, is that "buddies" are going to sign up in the same league and this will lead to the "buddy trade", which raises VETO questions.

    Hence, no trading.
    Last edited by Pengwin7; August 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    re: Tier I. I know mabus & smack worked their way up to that division (from reading previous threads) so they should be allowed to be in Tier I, if they finished high enough, or Tier II (worst case). But to be in true "Tier I"... somebody should be a "past winner". They should have to earn their way up the ladder and not just be grandfathered in. But the numbers could be modified. This is just a discussion starter.

    re: Tier IV. Consistency is indeed important. And there really needs to be one consistent overseeing person to review trades. I think last year that was Gates. But if there is, say, 11 tier IV divisions, I don't think having 11 commissioners is a good idea. I don't want to talk to 11 commissioners if there is a problem. However, if somebody (this is where you can raise your hand?) wants to act as the person to select a commissioner and deal with their questions... then that is fine.

    Even though it is given a Tier position... I think Tier IV can be run completely differently (no trading).

    Some explanation into "No Trading":
    When there is no relegation in a league, you can see people just bail on their team or make stupid trades.

    We've all read the "Veto or no veto" threads.
    I want to avoid this is one-year leagues where no penalty exists for making a bad trade.

    Also, I don't intend on making Tier IV divisions myself.
    I'd set up a googledocs lists with 15 slots and people could sign-up in any division they want, draft time would be posted.
    The downside of this, is that "buddies" are going to sign up in the same league and this will lead to the "buddy trade", which raises VETO questions.

    Hence, no trading.
    I agree about you should win to get in, my point is that's in a new system perhaps having a bit of compromise so that you're not punishing the writers who've been up there for awhile, and saying to some of them that they have to join tier three if they want to play. So, as you said the numbers can be discussed, the balance of writers/previous winners (e.g. LOTR,mabus,smack) and pro winners can be determined. Then, in the coming seasons, the cream will eventually rise (and stay) at the top.

    Another thing I'm wondering about and you can confirm if you have the info - is it definite that everyone in the Pro leagues won an entry division? I could be wrong but thought I had read once that these divisions were initially created with active forum members. So, it's possible that some of the current members, especially those you suggest would be promoted to tier one, have never won one of these leagues.

    As for the entry, are you sure Gates reviewed all trades? I think he put the trust in the league 'commissioners' to make a judgment call. In our league, it was NoWayOut and often trades had been processed quite quickly, so not sure if needed to get Gates to say it was ok or not. I think that wouldn't be right to have Gates oversee them anyway as I'm completely against 'third parties' judging deals as they are not in the league.

    The other thing is perhaps limit the number of leagues, or even tiers. Rather than go big - allowing everyone - gauge interest this season and go from there. Since it's late August, there's not a lot of time left to set this up, as of course you know. Perhaps to get this new system off the ground you could combine getting active posters and lottery invitees (as it's normally done) into the same leagues. That way, you're rewarding those who have been active for awhile and allowing x number of anyone else to join. Then you can ask the most forum active in each league (say, highest post count) to be the 'commish' of their league. I just think having an unlimited number of leagues will get a bit out of control (especially as you wouldn't be setting them up, understandably). Then after this season, you can decide whether to expand, considering how many people have entered into the lottery.

    I also understand the risk of bad trades, but I do feel those are in the minority and I think for the majority it would lessen the experience to prevent trading. If I knew it was a 'no trading' league I wouldn't join. And if those limited number of leagues would be set up by the assigned commish, you wouldn't get 'buddies' taking over the league and the risk of poor/collusive deals would be reduced, IMO.
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    Good comments.

    My last ones:
    1. Tier I. I'll talk to Gates, perhaps... and see what he feels the interest level is from those teams/GMs would be to participate in a league again.

    2. Tier II. You may be right. Many teams may have been original forum users.

    3. Tier III. I would guess that, for Dobber (& Gates), receiving e-mails of interested persons, confirming their identity as a forum member who bought the guide, whether they played last year, setting up a spreadsheet of names/emails and then doing a lottery, emailing everybody again, sending rules, answering questions... that was probably incredibly time consuming. The set-up... gathering invites - I think that is the worst part. Time consuming.

    The best way to cut down on time-consuming INVITE part is to identify to forum members what Tier they qualify for and then tell them to sign themselves up in a shared GoogleDoc with their forum ID and an email address. This will be fast and easy to maintain for an organizer (say... me).

    ****
    The entrants in Tier I, II, III are all long-time forum members. We can pretty much count on the collection in any league to police themselves. That is really solid. However, Tier IV could end up being anybody that wants to join. I'll offer a pool and set it up, but I am not going to police it in any fashion.
    ****

    4. Tier IV. Anything that involves gathering invites, lottery, assigning a commisioner. That's too much work for me. I won't do that. I can offer to set-up some standard league with no trades and let people join an unfilled 15-team pool. That is a step beyond what has ever been offered... a pool for everybody. I think this is a great offer (and balance the post-count cut-off criteria).


    Overall... IF (still a big IF) I take this on... it has to be easy.
    The invite part has to be easy.
    That's the most important.

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    Just wanted to say I am impressed and very grateful for/with the amount of work/thought/commitment being put into keeping this going. As a recent first time guide buyer I would love to be in a pool (if this goes ahead, would guide buyers be in Tier III or IV?

    Thanks to all!

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    Just one more query for now - wouldn't you need a finite number of tier four leagues so you know how many managers will be promoted to tier three? That should remain consistent every year so the divisions remain balanced.

    Anyway, much of the logistics can still be determined if you decide to take this on.

    Good luck, and look forward to updates.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dooley89 View Post
    Just wanted to say I am impressed and very grateful for/with the amount of work/thought/commitment being put into keeping this going. As a recent first time guide buyer I would love to be in a pool (if this goes ahead, would guide buyers be in Tier III or IV?

    Thanks to all!
    In the old format, buying a guide got you a "lottery ticket" to be in Dobber's Tier III pool. He invited 60 people, by lottery. (And that certainly was a lot of work for him & his crew to organize).

    In a new (proposed) format, anybody that wants a shot can enter into a Tier IV pool. If they win a Tier IV pool, they'd get an automatic entry to Tier III in the next year.


    Quote Originally Posted by horrorfan View Post
    Just one more query for now - wouldn't you need a finite number of tier four leagues so you know how many managers will be promoted to tier three? That should remain consistent every year so the divisions remain balanced.
    My vision for Tier III is the "High Post Count League".
    This means that Shoeless & high-forum-post members would get an invite virtually every year.

    The math for (60) Tier III entrants would be as follows:
    (8) Relegated from Tier II (4 from Wales, 4 from Campbell)
    (12) 3rd/4th/5th place finishers from Tier III (previous year)
    (x) Winners of a Tier IV league
    (y = 40-x) Invitees based on Post Count. Shoeless gets first invite, and so on down the list until all places are taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    My vision for Tier III is the "High Post Count League".
    This means that Shoeless & high-forum-post members would get an invite virtually every year.

    The math for (60) Tier III entrants would be as follows:
    (8) Relegated from Tier II (4 from Wales, 4 from Campbell)
    (12) 3rd/4th/5th place finishers from Tier III (previous year)
    (x) Winners of a Tier IV league
    (y = 40-x) Invitees based on Post Count. Shoeless gets first invite, and so on down the list until all places are taken.
    Ah ok - the tier four winners get priority over the high post count invitees. That makes sense, thanks.
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    Thanks for putting in all this work P7 lets hope we can keep this going. Really enjoyed all of it last year besides finishing 2nd.
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    I did some tweaks to my proposed "Tiers", on page 2 of this thread.
    See here.
    Last edited by Pengwin7; August 23, 2013 at 11:10 AM.

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    Just wanted to post to say props to Pengwin for all his work (and up my post count ). Whatever formula you decide on a few people will inevitably have issues with it, but so long as you create a process where going forward the best can rise to the top I think you'll be good to go.

    I'm really intrigued by the idea of starting off in the ECHL of DobberHockey and paying my dues to knock of Dobber and Company some day.
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    G, A, P, +/-, PIM, PPP, SHP, GWG, Hits, W, SV%, GAA
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    LW: Tatar, Johansson, Burakovsky, Nelson, Comeau
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    D: Karlsson, Carlson, Ghost, Borowiecki,
    G: Rask, Dubnyk,

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