Slate Article on Education Grading: A-F

[Loch]

I read this article recently (cant find it but I'll look) that was written by the guy who designed one of the pre-eminent SAT-prepratory packages that are used in the US. His whole point was that the SAT measures nothing other than one's ability to master how SATs are designed. So for example, the SATs get progressively harder as the exams go on, so he would always tutor his students to take a tact where they would pick the obvious answer early on (because it will invariably be correct) but to dismiss it later in the exam (because it will invariably be a trick). That's not measuring **** all IMO

Wait, so standardized tests aren't a measure of intelligence? So... attaching my self-worth to my LSAT score was misguided and wrong?

Love this conversation.

My mum was a teacher (primary/special ed.) and she absolutely hated standardized tests, particularly at the grade 3 age. She seemed to feel that telling kids at that age they were a failure was less than ideal and didn't bode well for their development.

The problem (in part) is that education seems to be focusing towards preparing students to be a productive member of the workforce instead of a productive member of society.

Meh, I could go on a rant, but it probably won't be that entertaining so I won't.

[HockeyProphet]

The problem (in part) is that education seems to be focusing towards preparing students to be a productive member of the workforce instead of a productive member of society.

About sums up my view on the topic. I think we're learning how to be successful student but not ultimately successful individuals outside of school.

[HockeyProphet]

Wait, so standardized tests aren't a measure of intelligence? So... attaching my self-worth to my LSAT score was misguided and wrong?

Also don't worry the LSAT is silly. Ha. And by the time your done law school, self-worth will be low anyways!

[Pengwin7]

Good thread.

I considered refraining from posting because my views on grading would be in the minority, I believe.

But - discussion on the forums has been slow... and, I have come to really respect the opinions of people on these forums.

As an engineer, I'm consistently wow-ed by the number of kids these days that really think they are going to make it in the real-world in a "sexy job"... advertising or a professional athlete... or acting... or singing... or well, shit... lots of stuff.

I'm constantly reading about how many college (COLLEGE!) graduates are unable to find work.

And I'm also constantly reading about how many technical jobs (math/science related) jobs are available and are being filled by students from other countries.

Honestly, one of my biggest criticisms of the US (and I effin love this country, honestly, I do believe it's really great) is that nobody is getting kids in this country to really like math & science.
Math & science are friggin awesome.
They are truth subjects.
2+2 = 4.
Done.
Settled.

Whereas most kids prefer to do art class... but what's good art vs. bad art?

Art class... english calss. Yeah, there I have a beef with grading.
What's good vs. what's bad is all subjective to the teacher.

But math & science class.
Thumbs up for grading... especially numerical grading.

Some people want to make class grading more vague and NOT put a grade on it. I don't know. I'm a big fan of grades. Not letter grades, but number grades, yes. I think kids need to understand, numerically, where they stand up relative to other kids their age... and kids in other countries their age. They need to know where they stand up compared to perfection. And they need to understand, at a relative early age, if they are a failure at something. And then they need to decide whether they want to correct that lack of knowledge or accept it as not an important skill to their future enjoyment of life. (which is OK... completely OK to not excel in a selected field... the world need lots of different types of people... with different skills... but until you get there, some evaluation system is going to tell you where you stand... so you know... so you are guided towards your strength...)

So... I probably shouldn't post this because I'm going to get slapped by I'm:
i) Big fan of grading.
ii) Big fan of standardized tests.

I'm actually an enormous fan of the work ethic and dedication to education that I see in kids coming out of Asia & India. I went to Waterloo (we often called it Water-woo) and found that those two cultures had their dedication to the math/science fields down a lot better than the rest of us.

[You should SEE a computer engineering, electrical engineering, or computer science classroom at Waterloo. 15% white... max! Brilliant students. But mostly Asian or Indian.]

Anyways... that's my rant.
I. like. grades.

(I also like Gary Bettman. Ugh, I'm not sure if I now feel dirtier or cleaner...)

[Loch]

Also don't worry the LSAT is silly. Ha. And by the time your done law school, self-worth will be low anyways!

Heh... I wasn't worried, it went well (though apparently it was several years back now... damn time flies). Still haven't gone to lawschool though.

I will agree to some degree with Pengwin, there is a time and place for grading and some standardization of tests but I'll qualify that by saying it shouldn't be the sole focus of education.

As for Bettman... you're on your own there (okay, maybe along with the board of governors).

[newfcollins]

Excellent post by Pengwin.

One thing about math: I'm a big believer that for math, a student should know 66% to be able to pass. That's two-thirds, which isn't a lot, really. But if a student can barely pass Grade 9 math, how are they going to do in Grade 10? Math, more than any other subject, relies on one knowing what came before. If you study English, and you don't know what irony is, you can still learn simile and metaphor and what not and not be that screwed.

But in math, if you can't figure out fractions, for example, you get screwed as you go further along. So much of math is based on everything you already learned, and if you only know half of it one year, that means you're already behind the following year before a class even starts.

As an engineer, I'm consistently wow-ed by the number of kids these days that really think they are going to make it in the real-world in a "sexy job"... advertising or a professional athlete... or acting... or singing... or well, shit... lots of stuff.

I'm constantly reading about how many college (COLLEGE!) graduates are unable to find work.

And I'm also constantly reading about how many technical jobs (math/science related) jobs are available and are being filled by students from other countries.

I don't think the high schools do a good enough job pushing for students to go into some of these courses. My brother moved to Ottawa and signed up for an eight-week meat-cutting course. The first day of class, someone from a major grocery chain came in and offered all nine of them all full-time jobs on the basis they finish the course.

When he graduated, he had no problem finding work. He eventually went to a meat market grocery store, and was working there for a while. Eventually, he went to the owner and said he was thinking about leaving, because at one of the major grocery chains, he could get $1 an hour more and health benefits, and since he had a family, that was important. The owner asked him to wait a few days, and it wasn't long before my brother had a raise and all the employees had health benefits. All because the guy didn't want to lose my brother.

Here's the thing: There aren't enough meat-cutters out there. They can name their own price, really. Stores are so desperate for people they are going to colleges on the first day of class to offer full-time jobs. But how many high schools are telling kids that it's okay to be a meat-cutter? Or even giving students the idea? The schools encourage kids to get into the artsy classes, but there's already an abundance of people into those programs, so jobs are scarce.

Yes, meat-cutting isn't as math or science-based as Pengwin alluded to, but you get the idea.

[mister_mcgoo]

Excellent post by Pengwin.

One thing about math: I'm a big believer that for math, a student should know 66% to be able to pass. That's two-thirds, which isn't a lot, really. But if a student can barely pass Grade 9 math, how are they going to do in Grade 10? Math, more than any other subject, relies on one knowing what came before. If you study English, and you don't know what irony is, you can still learn simile and metaphor and what not and not be that screwed.

But in math, if you can't figure out fractions, for example, you get screwed as you go further along. So much of math is based on everything you already learned, and if you only know half of it one year, that means you're already behind the following year before a class even starts.



I don't think the high schools do a good enough job pushing for students to go into some of these courses. My brother moved to Ottawa and signed up for an eight-week meat-cutting course. The first day of class, someone from a major grocery chain came in and offered all nine of them all full-time jobs on the basis they finish the course.

When he graduated, he had no problem finding work. He eventually went to a meat market grocery store, and was working there for a while. Eventually, he went to the owner and said he was thinking about leaving, because at one of the major grocery chains, he could get $1 an hour more and health benefits, and since he had a family, that was important. The owner asked him to wait a few days, and it wasn't long before my brother had a raise and all the employees had health benefits. All because the guy didn't want to lose my brother.

Here's the thing: There aren't enough meat-cutters out there. They can name their own price, really. Stores are so desperate for people they are going to colleges on the first day of class to offer full-time jobs. But how many high schools are telling kids that it's okay to be a meat-cutter? Or even giving students the idea? The schools encourage kids to get into the artsy classes, but there's already an abundance of people into those programs, so jobs are scarce.

Yes, meat-cutting isn't as math or science-based as Pengwin alluded to, but you get the idea.

I agree with you (and Pengwin) on part of this and completely disagree on the other -haha

On the one hand, yes, math and science are essential and a better job needs to be done encouraging those skills and making them 'fun' and applicable for kids to learn because the current curriculum is boring everyone (even those who enjoy the subjects). But at the same time I think it's shortsighted and foolish to try to fit every kid into the same hole and say 'you just have to learn this like everyone else because that's the way it is'. Think about it for a minute, realistically how much math does the average person need/use in their daily lives and jobs? Not much, probably 7th/8th grade would be sufficient. Arithmetic, fractions, percentages, some basic geomtery would be nice too but beyond that? How many people use trig in their day to day lives? How often do you need to calculate a differential equation? Or need to figure out precisely how much time for a cone to fill with water from your garden hose? So yes I agree with you that to produce well-rounded adults we need to make sure kids are exposed to all subjects to a certain degree, but beyond that I think it serves no purpose forcing a child to learn something they do not enjoy, have zero aptitude for and which they will never use in their lives. Much better to identify early what they enjoy and excel at and allow them to pursue that path as they see fit.

I think the other huge part of the problem is that as a society we've come to believe that everyone should go to college and that if you don't pursue that kind of path that you're somehow 'stupid' or a 'loser' or that you are throwing away opportunities or something equally obtuse. The reality today is that college in the US has become BIG business and the result is that they now accept almost anyone who can pay them into their programs. In turn the lack of exclusivity devalues the degree such that now for a great many fields in the US it is basically worthless because all it means is that you are exactly like 100 other applicants for the same job. And it's gotten so bad that it's not just the usual suspects like liberal arts majors who are struggling to find work, it's engineers and scientists as well. This glut of college students hurts everyone. It hurts the true academics who get lost in the mix and can't stand out from the herd and it equally hurts those who are doing it solely because their parents pushed them into it, they wind up miserable in their jobs and doing a half-assed job of it. Higher education should be the goal of all, but that definitely does not mean you have to go to college, I would estimate that probably at least half the people that go to college would be better served with non-academic training.

As you note, they desperately NEED people to do many of the jobs that people sometimes look down their nose at today as too 'blue collar'. But these are the jobs that used to be considered 'trades', the skills that got passed down from father to son through generations and they are vanishing at an alarming rate and for no good reason. You mention the meat cutter thing, I have a guy in my neighborhood who opened a butcher shop about a year and a half ago. He went to business school and worked on wall st for a couple years and HATED it, now he owns a butcher shop and every time I go in there he has a huge smile on his face so it's obviously something he loves (and great for me, his ribeyes are ridiculously delicious). I want to see more of that, it's good for everyone.

I don't have kids of my own yet but I'm going to encourage them to do whatever they love (college or not) and I could care less if they become a neurosurgeon or a pub musician, life is far too short to waste on working a job you hate. I'm also going to encourage them to learn at least one trade/skill even if they decide to got the academic route, the more you know and the more flexible you are the more valuable you are to the workforce and the more fulfilled you will be in life.

[Ross The Boss Palmer]

I think the Khan Academy (great TED talk) is on to something very positive. Check out the talk/website/app if you haven't already.