View Poll Results: Who do you want in a dynasty and why?

Voters
55. You may not vote on this poll
  • Benn

    49 89.09%
  • Kadri

    6 10.91%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 35

Thread: Benn or Kadri

  1. #16
    One87's Avatar
    One87 is offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    6,295
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Wizard

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    Sorry but that's not an overpayment for Kadri. Not really even a good value IMO. If I had Kadri, I wouldn't even consider it.

    Conacher is decent but Kadri is much better (I wish I could say otherwise as I own Conacher in one league and don't own Kadri in any league). Brunner hit the wall after a good start and he's pretty much your average mid-level fantasy forward. Omark probably won't make a career in NHL. So to me that severe underpayment for Kadri and classic quantity over quality deal. And I'm not even that high on Kadri. He'll be a solid 60-70 player, not expecting anything more, but even that's better than the guys offered compined IMO. Kadri proved more this year and has higher potential.

    That said, I agree that no one in their right mind would ever trade Benn for Kadri.
    I agree with a lot of your points. We're mainly talking about upside here. None of the 3 offered are scrubs. They all can push for 60pts, imo.


    I agree with Kadri's upside. I have him a good 10-15pts ahead of what I think Brunner will probably put out. When I factor in Conacher's upside plus and an Omark, I do feel it is overpayment, knowing Kadri will not outproduce those Brunner or Conacher by much let alone Brunner AND Conacher. Furthermore, what a throwin like Omark could do in the NHL. I don't know if I can call this the classic quality vs. quantity deal. Brunner was the SEL scoring champ. Conacher won the Willie Marshall as the AHL's leading goal scorer last year and was in the running for the Calder this year and is in a better situation with Ottawa, raising his value. To boot, both he and Brunner are C/W eligible creating roster flexibility - that is a value add. Lastly, Omark just won the Swiss League scoring title and has been in the NHL. We know he can play. He clicked well with Brunner and Zetterberg. He wants to return to the NHL. I don't think it's out of the question that Detroit could sign him. I really don't think Kadri for Conacher + Brunner + Omark is anything to dismiss.
    League:Fantrax 18 Team Dynasty, H2H (4C, 8W, 6D, 1G)
    Cats:G, A, GWG, PPP, SHP, SOG, H+B, FOW, S, SV%, W, GAA

    C: Backstrom,Giroux,MacKinnon,Seguin
    W:
    D.Brown,Hartnell,Hossa,P.Kane
    Kesler,Marleau,Perron,Zibanejad

    D: Boyle,Del Zotto,Doughty,D.Hamilton,Hedman,Markov
    G: Rinne
    Bench: Braun,Comeau, Demers,DeHaan,Polak,Stempniak,Wingels --Fleury

  2. #17
    cdubb's Avatar
    cdubb is offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,320
    Rep Power
    27

    Dobber Sports Ace

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by One87 View Post
    I really don't think Kadri for Conacher + Brunner + Omark is anything to dismiss.
    I agree that Benn > Kadri (could guess from your initial post that was what you were getting at).

    But with what Kadri's done, I bet a lot of GMs (over)value him as a point per game no.1 C, while Conacher + Brunner will be lucky to be solid 2nd line players.

    I know your league is deep if its 20 teams, but I wouldn't value Omark as worth anything than a waiver wire pickup normally.
    Last edited by cdubb; May 1, 2013 at 9:11 AM.
    Semi-retired

  3. #18
    Location
    Scotland
    Rep Power
    50

    The Wolverine

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by One87 View Post
    I really don't think Kadri for Conacher + Brunner + Omark is anything to dismiss.
    Back to my point, what's really important to keep in mind is that this is your perceived value of these players with respect to the offer. However, if the other manager doesn't feel the same way, then it doesn't matter as you're the one targeting his player. This is why I rarely ever try to sell any player I offer someone, as I know his valuations could be different than mine. I may throw in the occasional 'I see you need a _ and I could use a _, what do you think?' Otherwise, I'll trust the other manager to evaluate in his/her own way.

  4. #19
    Carcillo's Avatar
    Carcillo is offline
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    7,987
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Guru

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by One87 View Post
    I agree with Kadri's upside.
    I didn't really give my opinion on Kadri's upside He has PPG upside but I personally think he'll settle for 60-70 points (I see Benn as low 70's guy).

    Conacher and Brunner I see as 40-50 point guys, with 70 point upside. Not too high on either of them.

    I was high on Omark few years ago but right now doesn't look like he'll make it as an NHL'er. Don't see him having any fantasy value currently. Not until he signs NHL-contract atleast. There is tons of similarly talented players like Omark who never made it in NHL and settled for career European top league players.


    Quote Originally Posted by One87 View Post
    I really don't think Kadri for Conacher + Brunner + Omark is anything to dismiss.
    Agree to disagree on that which was also my point I wouldn't question the other guys knowledge if he feels Kadri is better than Benn, just like I wouldn't question your knowledge if you consider that as an overpayment for Kadri. We all value players differently and can't asses other guys fantasy knowledge purely based on how he feels on a certain player.

    So as a commissioner I don't think you have reason to question the other guys knowledge if he values Kadri over Benn (maybe his previous trades/trade talks raise alarm bells though, don't know about that). You, I and pretty much everyone around here will disagree with that, but he's entitled to his own player evaluation. And look at just the facts: Kadri had 44 points this year compared to Benn's 33. There's a good basis for valuing Kadri over Benn. It's not like Benn has proven a whole lot more right now. It's still all upside with him too.
    Last edited by Carcillo; May 1, 2013 at 9:21 AM.
    UHL Pittsburgh Penguins

    24 Team Fantrax Salary Cap H2H Dynasty League
    G, A, +/-, PIM, PPP, SHP, GWG, SOG
    , Hits, Blks, FOW
    W, GAA, SV, SV%, SO
    23 Man Roster - 3C, 3LW, 3RW, 3F, 6D, 1G, 4BN, 4IR
    27 Man Minor Team

    C-
    Tavares, Stepan, Granlund, Bjugstad, Couturier
    LW- Ryan, Perron, Ennis, Killorn, Spaling
    RW-
    Wheeler, Simmonds, Coyle, Wingels, Shaw
    D-
    JJ, Schultz, Cowen, Muzzin, Bortuzzo, Stanton
    G- Lehtonen, Rämö

    F: Lehterä, Wennberg,
    McNeill, de la Rose, Fast, Leivo, Arnold, Archibald, Lindström
    D: Gelinas, Beaulieu, Koekkoek, McCabe, Johns, Gryba
    G: Berra, Talbot, Brossoit, Ullmark, Lieuwen, Rynnäs

    *UHL Champion 2014*

  5. #20
    One87's Avatar
    One87 is offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    6,295
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Wizard

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by horrorfan View Post
    I think this might not have been the best time to enquire about Kadri given his play this season. You would likely have to overpay if his owner is smart, whether or not actual value matches perceived value (short season or beyond).

    Everyone values players differently so I would hold off from worrying or making judgments on these managers. Let it play out and see what happens. Given this is a shortened season, I feel that many players' perceived value could be artificially inflated/deflated and I'd rather see another full season out of such players (e.g. Kadri). Who knows, Kadri may continue to excel, Benn may stabilise into a solid multi cat player with limited upside offensively, or other possibilities.

    Considering how much you differ in evaluating - see how what one perceives may not be the consensus? That's all part of the negotiating process, including (possibly) overvaluing your own players to get the best possible outcome.

    The positives you take out of it is that he gave you an honest assessment of the offer based on his own knowledge and perception. Make a note of this for possible future dealings.
    You raise very good points... perceived value, etc. That's pretty much what ALL of the players involved are... upside. He wanted an ESTABLISHED player like a Benn. No way would I do that for a guy who hasn't proven anything. I don't care what his pedigree is. With that said, Kadri went ape sh*t, yes. But as stated, he hit a wall down the stretch. No surprise, his scoring % was not attainable for the long run. All players run hot and then cold. I think the jury is still out as is the case with Brunner or Conacher. With that said, I like Kadri's chances better than either of the two. But in a 20 team league, I like Brunner and Conacher's chances collectively better than Kadri's alone. But hey, we all have our views which are fun to discuss. At this point, though, I'm more focused on his mindset in future dealings...Anyone who has ever commished can reallh appreciate where I am coming from. There's a fine line where this guy coukd either end up being one helluva GM or a hellish GM. To your later point of future negotiations, this particular trade talk is already that which prompted me to post this for second opinions.

    I tend to take my time and give guys ample time, but once you've been around the block a bit, story lines tend to play out quicker when you know what you're looking for.

    Do appreciate the great feedback!
    League:Fantrax 18 Team Dynasty, H2H (4C, 8W, 6D, 1G)
    Cats:G, A, GWG, PPP, SHP, SOG, H+B, FOW, S, SV%, W, GAA

    C: Backstrom,Giroux,MacKinnon,Seguin
    W:
    D.Brown,Hartnell,Hossa,P.Kane
    Kesler,Marleau,Perron,Zibanejad

    D: Boyle,Del Zotto,Doughty,D.Hamilton,Hedman,Markov
    G: Rinne
    Bench: Braun,Comeau, Demers,DeHaan,Polak,Stempniak,Wingels --Fleury

  6. #21
    One87's Avatar
    One87 is offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    6,295
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Wizard

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    I didn't really give my opinion on Kadri's upside He has PPG upside but I personally think he'll settle for 60-70 points (I see Benn as low 70's guy).

    Conacher and Brunner I see as 40-50 point guys, with 70 point upside. Not too high on either of them.

    I was high on Omark few years ago but right now doesn't look like he'll make it as an NHL'er. Don't see him having any fantasy value currently. Not until he signs NHL-contract atleast. There is tons of similarly talented players like Omark who never made it in NHL and settled for career European top league players.


    Agree to disagree on that which was also my point I wouldn't question the other guys knowledge if he feels Kadri is better than Benn, just like I wouldn't question your knowledge if you consider that as an overpayment for Kadri. We all value players differently and can't asses other guys fantasy knowledge purely based on how he feels on a certain player.

    So as a commissioner I don't think you have reason to question the other guys knowledge if he values Kadri over Benn (maybe his previous trades/trade talks raise alarm bells though, don't know about that). You, I and pretty much everyone around here will disagree with that, but he's entitled to his own player evaluation. And look at just the facts: Kadri had 44 points this year compared to Benn's 33. There's a good basis for valuing Kadri over Benn. It's not like Benn has proven a whole lot more right now. It's still all upside with him too.

    I get what you're stating. I agree with respecting each GMs right to assess players however they want for whatever reason. They have that right. Just as they have that right, myself and the league as a whole has the right to ensure that everyone upholds each GM to the criteria that has brought us success.

    This is whole ordeal less about me trying to dictate a GM's fundamental right to assess and more about me safeguarding a quality group. As a rule of thumb, I roundtable matters with everyone before making decisions. And when I do that, I explain why a matter is even hrought up. Rarely do I bring things here, but I decided to put the poll up and expound some. You and the others are brinying up good points, some I had alrewey weighed and others as reminders. Thank you for that.
    Last edited by One87; May 1, 2013 at 10:11 AM.
    League:Fantrax 18 Team Dynasty, H2H (4C, 8W, 6D, 1G)
    Cats:G, A, GWG, PPP, SHP, SOG, H+B, FOW, S, SV%, W, GAA

    C: Backstrom,Giroux,MacKinnon,Seguin
    W:
    D.Brown,Hartnell,Hossa,P.Kane
    Kesler,Marleau,Perron,Zibanejad

    D: Boyle,Del Zotto,Doughty,D.Hamilton,Hedman,Markov
    G: Rinne
    Bench: Braun,Comeau, Demers,DeHaan,Polak,Stempniak,Wingels --Fleury

  7. #22
    One87's Avatar
    One87 is offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    6,295
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Wizard

    Default

    So far, this poll is demonstrating that there is no reason to even discuss Kadri in the same league as Benn, let one Benn plus.

    Not to beat a dead horse, but this is why I questioned said GM's ability assess talent as per the type of GM our league is looking for which would ensure the longevity and quality of the league. No disrespect to anyone.
    League:Fantrax 18 Team Dynasty, H2H (4C, 8W, 6D, 1G)
    Cats:G, A, GWG, PPP, SHP, SOG, H+B, FOW, S, SV%, W, GAA

    C: Backstrom,Giroux,MacKinnon,Seguin
    W:
    D.Brown,Hartnell,Hossa,P.Kane
    Kesler,Marleau,Perron,Zibanejad

    D: Boyle,Del Zotto,Doughty,D.Hamilton,Hedman,Markov
    G: Rinne
    Bench: Braun,Comeau, Demers,DeHaan,Polak,Stempniak,Wingels --Fleury

  8. #23
    Location
    Scotland
    Rep Power
    50

    The Wolverine

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by One87 View Post
    So far, this poll is demonstrating that there is no reason to even discuss Kadri in the same league as Benn, let one Benn plus.

    Not to beat a dead horse, but this is why I questioned said GM's ability assess talent as per the type of GM our league is looking for which would ensure the longevity and quality of the league. No disrespect to anyone.
    Of course I don't know your league, but what else has prompted you to question this manager's ability to assess talent?

    In general and without knowing the answer to the above question, we all want to be in quality leagues but you need to tread carefully here. Just because there's a consensus doesn't mean the manager doesn't belong in the league. Minority opinion doesn't necessarily mean the wrong one, nor lack of knowledge. His response shows to me that he's confident in his evaluations, whether you/we agree or not. Perhaps this manager looks more (or overvalues) current production as a predictor of future value, but it doesn't mean he can't learn as he manages and build a successful team and be competitive.

    Just curious, what if Kadri outpoints Benn next year?

  9. #24
    One87's Avatar
    One87 is offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    6,295
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Wizard

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by horrorfan View Post
    Of course I don't know your league, but what else has prompted you to question this manager's ability to assess talent?

    In general and without knowing the answer to the above question, we all want to be in quality leagues but you need to tread carefully here. Just because there's a consensus doesn't mean the manager doesn't belong in the league. Minority opinion doesn't necessarily mean the wrong one, nor lack of knowledge. His response shows to me that he's confident in his evaluations, whether you/we agree or not. Perhaps this manager looks more (or overvalues) current production as a predictor of future value, but it doesn't mean he can't learn as he manages and build a successful team and be competitive.

    Just curious, what if Kadri outpoints Benn next year?
    What Benn and Kadri do next year remain to be seen and will be a brand new conversation next year. I can't get into the ifs now. We're discussing two players. It's not just what Kadrdri may do. There is no reason to doubt that Benn will improve. If anything, he is more of a sure thing because of his track record. We all know that he has been dubbed a star. Kadri is not in that ball park. Did he open eyes this past year, absolutely. But again, a lot of good players can look great on a hot streak in half a season. Some of his owners factor this in and want to sell-high.

    What remains to he seen is what he does over the coarse of a year. As of now, the present reality is reflected in this poll's results - complete Benn domination. Anything but that NOW would he ridiculous, even with the work Nazim put in.
    Last edited by One87; May 1, 2013 at 10:55 AM.
    League:Fantrax 18 Team Dynasty, H2H (4C, 8W, 6D, 1G)
    Cats:G, A, GWG, PPP, SHP, SOG, H+B, FOW, S, SV%, W, GAA

    C: Backstrom,Giroux,MacKinnon,Seguin
    W:
    D.Brown,Hartnell,Hossa,P.Kane
    Kesler,Marleau,Perron,Zibanejad

    D: Boyle,Del Zotto,Doughty,D.Hamilton,Hedman,Markov
    G: Rinne
    Bench: Braun,Comeau, Demers,DeHaan,Polak,Stempniak,Wingels --Fleury

  10. #25
    Location
    Scotland
    Rep Power
    50

    The Wolverine

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by One87 View Post
    What Benn and Kadri do next year remain to be seen and will be a brand new conversation next year. I can't get into the ifs now. We're discussing two players. There is no reason to doubt Benn will improve. We alk know that he has been dubbed a star. Kadri is not in that ball park. Did he open eyes this past year, absolutely. But again, a lot of good players can look great on a hot streak in half a season. What remains to he seen is what he does over the coarse of a year. As of now, the present reality is reflected in this poll's results - complete Benn domination. Anything but that NOW would he ridiculous, even with Kadri's magical half season in mind.
    My point is that you are questioning his 'ability to assess talent' but if Kadri outpoints Benn next year then it shows that consensus doesn't necessarily mean more knowledgeable. He gave his reasoning and it may turn out wrong, but he feels this way, he has the player 'on a hot streak' so if he wants other managers to overpay then he's entitled to do it. This also doesn't mean less knowledgeable.

    Now as for my earlier question, is there something else that makes you question this manager's value in the league? There has to be more to it than this one comparison for you to go to this length to question his abilities.

  11. #26
    One87's Avatar
    One87 is offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    6,295
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Wizard

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by horrorfan View Post
    My point is that you are questioning his 'ability to assess talent' but if Kadri outpoints Benn next year then it shows that consensus doesn't necessarily mean more knowledgeable. He gave his reasoning and it may turn out wrong, but he feels this way, he has the player 'on a hot streak' so if he wants other managers to overpay then he's entitled to do it. This also doesn't mean less knowledgeable.

    Now as for my earlier question, is there something else that makes you question this manager's value in the league? There has to be more to it than this one comparison for you to go to this length to question his abilities.
    Ah, I see what you mean. In my view, two things would need to happen next year for me to think differently about these two. Kadri would have to improve and outpoint Benn considerably or at least go at a ppg pace. The second is Benn would have to regress because he is ahead of Kadri with production to date. Beyond next season, I would want to see the same type of production from Kadri the year after next before I would be sold from a consistency standpoint. This was arguably his first season. Next year should be telling.


    I only meant to discuss this particular trade. I really don't want to add more to it and over analyze things any more than they already have been, although I appreciate sound dialogue like this. But yes, there was more. I'll just state this much about it. There was a different deal involving a different player and what he wanted for him was a little over the top for my taste, but I overlooked it and thought nothing of it because that player was at least a bonafide star.

    The Kadri situation was actually the second deal. My inquiry of him led to a Benn + D. Hamilton (and others instead of Ham) response. That made my antenna rise. So it really isn't so much about the last deal posted: Kadri - Conacher,Brunner and Omark- - even Ritchie could have been had in place of Omark if need be. It was more of how things progressed from the 1st to the 2nd deal. It just seemed like way TOO much overshooting from his end when countering or proposing and then the rationale for valuation coupled with that was, as one previous poster stated, out to lunch.
    Last edited by One87; May 1, 2013 at 11:38 AM.

  12. #27
    deantime419's Avatar
    deantime419 is offline
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,884
    Location
    Edmonton
    Rep Power
    28

    Dobber Sports Veteran

    Default

    I would put a poll on your league's front page on who'd they rather own just to curb this guy's ego about his perceived value of Kadri - though that might hurt future trade negotiations with him.
    12 tm pts only dynasty
    F (count 12): Bedard, Boldy, Beniers, Cooley, Michkov, Norris, Landeskog, Rossi, Reichel, Pelletier, Tomasino, Foerster, Bordeleau, Lysell, Wahlstrom, Bourque, Stankoven, Nazar, Othmann, Ostlund, O.Moore
    D (count 6): McAvoy, Kylington, Byram, Boqvist, Perunovich, Lundkvist, L.Hughes, Zellweger, Morrow
    G (count 2): Askarov, Wallstedt, Wolf, Kochetkov, Levi
    3 round draft and 1 waiver per team per year

  13. #28
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Grand Master

    Default

    I don't think it is at a point where you need to be worried about the manager. True he is overvaluing Kadri, but everybody over values some players, and especially if he is a Toronto fan they do it the worst. Benn hasn't had a fantastic year and Kadri might have had a career year. So there's that.

  14. #29
    sixhands's Avatar
    sixhands is offline
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    957
    Location
    perennial nomad
    Rep Power
    24

    Dobber Sports Initiate

    Default

    And remember that Benn played through an injury for most of the season.

    Based on that alone I would take Benn. I mean if the guy can post 33 points in 41 games playing injured then to me that's better than 44 in 48 playing healthy.

    Now when you factor in that Kadri has only played 99 NHL games in total you really don't have a great sample size.

    Benn is more proven with 263 games played with 3 seasons of 20+ goals.

    If the argument was really about fulfilling their "upside" then the solution would be to flip a coin and call a friend

    PROVEN is ALWAYS better than POTENTIAL (statement may be subject to change without notice!)
    Keeper-G/A/PPG/SHG/GWG/W/SO
    C-Steen-Pavelski-Stepan-Bergeron-Malkin
    L-Ovechkin-Johansson-Ladd-Eriksson
    R-Perry-Backes-Wheeler-Hornqvist-Nash
    D-Burns-Byfuglien-Letang-Shattenkirk-Vatanen
    G-Andersen-Luongo
    Farm-Condon-Horvat-Namestnikov-Walman-Murray(G)

    Think you can write fiction? Enter this quarterly competition.
    http://www.flash500.com

  15. #30
    hockeymanG23's Avatar
    hockeymanG23 is offline
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    4,173
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Genius

    Default

    I voted for Benn but wouldn't be worried about the other GMs evaluation skills based off of these negotiations.

    He seems to be trying the old "sell high buy low" strategy which others here have mentioned. The best of us do it, I'd be more concerned if he's undervaluing his players and selling them off after any little slump in production. On the other hand I would also be annoyed if it seemed to be the only tactic the GM ever seemed to use, but as long as he's not harming his team, he's remaining competitive, and not making enemies in the pool I would say his tactics are fine if not slightly delusional.

    Who knows, maybe Kadri becomes the envy of poolies everywhere in the next few years and Benn pulls a "Gomez". Stranger things have happened.
    10 team full keeper roto 4C/LW/RW,6D,2G

    G,A,P,+/-,PIM,SOG,GWG,PPP,SHP,Hit,Blk,FOW
    W,GAA,SV,SV%,SHO

    C-Aho,Couturier,Matthews,O'Reilly
    LW-Ehlers,Giroux,Panarin,Rust
    RW-Kucherov,Palmieri,Pastrnak,Wilson
    D-Burns,Carlson,Gudas,Josi,Nurse,Pietrangelo
    G-Fleury,F.Andersen,Markstrom
    BN-Zacha

    Under 250 gp farm
    Beaucage,Berggren,Bokk,Brisson,Chytil,Dugan,Foerst er,Foote,Frost,Grewe,K.Johnson,Lindblom,Mikheyev,N ybeck,Peterka,Pospisil,Protas,Ranta,Raty,Stankoven ,Suzuki,Tuomaala
    Alexeyev,Brook,Foote,Graves,Poirier,Sanderson,Seid er,Wilde,Woo,Zamula
    Berdin,Brossoit,Commesso,Ersson,Husso,Knight,Koche tkov,Lafontaine,Oettinger,Primeau,Sandstrom,Stolar z,Ustimenko,Vladar

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •