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Thread: What to do about an unfair trade that went down during the season?

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    Default What to do about an unfair trade that went down during the season?

    The Commish in one of my leagues is considering overturning a trade that was made Feb 28 as he feels the trade was too lopsided and one of the GMs did not realize that he was trading his first round pick at the time. Just wanted to get everyone's take on what should happen in this situation.

    Since 15 players are kept, trading picks in our league on Yahoo requires trading Round 16 (equivalent to first round) through Round 22 (Seventh round)

    Here is a timeline of the events:

    Feb 28 -
    Team A trades Tuomo Ruutu (IR) and Round 19 (Fourth round) pick to Team B for Round 16 (First Round)

    Mar 21 -
    Team B drops Tuomu Ruutu. This was also the day he returned from injury.

    Apr 2 -
    Discussions start with teams and commissioner that trade was unfair and should be overturned.

    Team B finished dead last in the league so the pick that was traded to Team A is 1st overall. Team A finished 10th of 14.

    Bottom line is, what should be done in this situation?

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    This is like telling the Leafs that they can send back Kessel for Seguin ++

    The trade was done mid season and seems fair by all means. The drop of Ruutu seems unexplained so maybe there was something hidden in this trade from the get go.

    Once the year is over, if the draft picks become more valuable, a trade cannot be overturned IMO.

    This issue should have been dealt with when Ruutu was dropped. Right now, dealing with this in mid-April could hurt your league's integrity...

    Team B knew he was trading his first rounder; that's all he was offering. The fact the the first rounder becomes a first overall pick is a gamble he made and has to live with.
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    You cant go back a month + after the fact and look at reversing the trade, thats crazy. In my mind what's done is done and you can be damn sure he won't make the same mistake again.

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    So at the time of the trade team B did not know that a 16th rounder was a 1st rounder when keepers were factored in?

    If that's the case this gets a bit tricky. I'd want to know if your rules specify anything re the equivalency of Yahoo round picks to actual picks. I'd also want to know if there were any public discussions re trading picks within the Yahoo system. If not, this is a reasonable mistake to make. It's not plain and obvious that the 15 keepers would be rounds 1-15 rather than rounds 8-22.

    If it's the latter, of course, it doesn't make sense to trade picks in rounds 16 and 19. Still, trading a first round pick is a big deal and losing an asset like that because of an ambiguity in the rules doesn't strike me as a situation that contributes to the integrity of the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PensInThree View Post
    So at the time of the trade team B did not know that a 16th rounder was a 1st rounder when keepers were factored in?

    If that's the case this gets a bit tricky. I'd want to know if your rules specify anything re the equivalency of Yahoo round picks to actual picks. I'd also want to know if there were any public discussions re trading picks within the Yahoo system. If not, this is a reasonable mistake to make. It's not plain and obvious that the 15 keepers would be rounds 1-15 rather than rounds 8-22.

    If it's the latter, of course, it doesn't make sense to trade picks in rounds 16 and 19. Still, trading a first round pick is a big deal and losing an asset like that because of an ambiguity in the rules doesn't strike me as a situation that contributes to the integrity of the league.
    While not explicitly outlined in the rules on the group, draft picks have been traded in this league since the beginning. Team B has been a member for that entire time but has never made a trade involving picks prior to this.

    After a little research, back in Dec 2011 (the year Yahoo started allowing picks to be traded) there was a Commissioner's Note posted reading:

    Dec 12 11:24pm
    Draft Picks - Just so that everyone is on the same page...because we have 15 keepers the first round of picks that you can trade is round 16. Therefore, round 16 = round 1 in our draft. Feel fee to trade round 16 (round 1) through round 22 (round 7).
    Still not outlined explicitly in the rules on the group page though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bass56 View Post
    This is like telling the Leafs that they can send back Kessel for Seguin ++

    The trade was done mid season and seems fair by all means. The drop of Ruutu seems unexplained so maybe there was something hidden in this trade from the get go.

    Once the year is over, if the draft picks become more valuable, a trade cannot be overturned IMO.

    This issue should have been dealt with when Ruutu was dropped. Right now, dealing with this in mid-April could hurt your league's integrity...

    Team B knew he was trading his first rounder; that's all he was offering. The fact the the first rounder becomes a first overall pick is a gamble he made and has to live with.
    My thoughts as well.

    I don't buy the excuse either that he didnt know it was a first round pick. One of my biggest pet peeves is someone joining a league and immediately pulling the deal on a trigger as though it's some sort of macho move...without getting a grasp on the rules first.

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    If its a rule that has been in place for 2 seasons then I dont see how team B can claim ignorance. That is his own fault, everyone has equal access to the rules just because he chose not to make himself familiar with them doesnt mean he should get a mulligan.

    Also I don't know how someone could claim to not realize that round 16 is actually the 1st round, you said you only draft 7 players each year to supplement your keepers anyways so how else would there be 22 rounds in the draft unless the first 15 are for keepers .......

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    Quote Originally Posted by wendelclark17 View Post
    If its a rule that has been in place for 2 seasons then I dont see how team B can claim ignorance. That is his own fault, everyone has equal access to the rules just because he chose not to make himself familiar with them doesnt mean he should get a mulligan.

    Also I don't know how someone could claim to not realize that round 16 is actually the 1st round, you said you only draft 7 players each year to supplement your keepers anyways so how else would there be 22 rounds in the draft unless the first 15 are for keepers .......
    Exactly........
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    I would tell the owner of Team B to suck it up. Chalk this up as a painful lesson as to why you should know the information before making trades like this. If the Team B owner is claiming ignorance on this one, somebody should ask him what he thought a round 16 draft pick really was; did he think it was an actual pick in the 16th round of your draft? It sounds like the Team B owner has been in the league for a while, so he should be aware of the fact that you have never actually had 16 rounds in your draft. So, what did he think he was trading?

    I would also ask the Commisioner to put it in the actual rules, rather than leaving it as a footnote.

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    Last edited by Rylant; April 8, 2013 at 12:51 PM.

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    Seems like there's 2 separate potential problems here:

    1. Collusion. Team B downgrades his 1st to a 4th for Ruutu. Team B likely got hosed but its the deal he made, if he keeps Ruutu the deal stands. However, the next day he drops the only value he got out of the deal, that doesn't make any sense and smells like collusion. It looks like a sneaky way to improve Team A's draft pick (especially given Ruutu is immediately dropped). If there were concerns about collusion they should have been dealt with immediately following the trade it's almost impossible to reverse a deal on the grounds of collusion so far after the fact.

    2. Team B unaware he traded a 1st rounder. You stated the rules were clearly stated by the commissioner and Team B saw them, therefore, he needed to know them. You can't reverse a deal because Team B didn't understand the rules (more likely he's now pissed that he was stupid/impatient and traded away the first overall pick). He now knows he got hosed, live and learn. No reversal here.

    If it was immediately following the trade there may be some grounds to reverse it on collusion, the trade should never be reversed because of #2 above. In any event its now a month later the time to reverse the trade has long passed and everyone has to live with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LawMan View Post
    Seems like there's 2 separate potential problems here:

    1. Collusion. Team B downgrades his 1st to a 4th for Ruutu. Team B likely got hosed but its the deal he made, if he keeps Ruutu the deal stands. However, the next day he drops the only value he got out of the deal, that doesn't make any sense and smells like collusion. It looks like a sneaky way to improve Team A's draft pick (especially given Ruutu is immediately dropped). If there were concerns about collusion they should have been dealt with immediately following the trade it's almost impossible to reverse a deal on the grounds of collusion so far after the fact.

    2. Team B unaware he traded a 1st rounder. You stated the rules were clearly stated by the commissioner and Team B saw them, therefore, he needed to know them. You can't reverse a deal because Team B didn't understand the rules (more likely he's now pissed that he was stupid/impatient and traded away the first overall pick). He now knows he got hosed, live and learn. No reversal here.

    If it was immediately following the trade there may be some grounds to reverse it on collusion, the trade should never be reversed because of #2 above. In any event its now a month later the time to reverse the trade has long passed and everyone has to live with it.
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    Tricky situation.

    I have a buddy that is in a 8-player keeper and when trades come his way, he has to understand that Round 9 means FIRST ROUND OF REDRAFT.


    This one is on the commissioner.
    I'd consider it cut & dry.

    1) There is documented evidence that the league has posted the information to explain that Round 16 = Round 1 of the redraft.
    In this case, all parties should have known the value of a Round 16 pick and the trade stands as made.

    2) There is no documented evidence that the league has posted the information to explain that Round 16 = Round 1 of the redraft.

    Here is what I would do.
    The team (10th/14) that received the 1st overall pick gets to keep that pick. There should be no penalizing the team getting the 1st overall pick.

    The team that traded away their 1st overall pick could be compensated with a supplementary pick (between 1st & 3rd overall pick). This is done ONLY if the team with the 2nd overall pick (2nd last) is OK with that. If not, then you ask the team with the 3rd overall pick (3rd last) if they are OK with allowing a supplementary pick.

    etc., etc. on down the line.

    In other words, you ask the teams finishing last, in order, if they would allow a "front-of-person-cutsy" based on this mishap. During the redraft, wherever the "cutsy" is allowed, your GM declares during the draft which player they want and then that player is off-limits until the team can actually draft them during the 19th (4th round).

    That is how I would handle it.

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    Since the manager's been in the league for at least two years, and at that time the Commissioner noted that round 16 Yahoo picks = 1st rounders for your draft, tough deal for Team B.

    Team B got hosed, but should have known better. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. (Only an excuse where the law is inherently ambiguous or non-public)

    Also, there's no way this deal is fishy enough to warrant collusion consideration. 1st round picks, while valuable, are still 16th round picks. No guarantee you get a great player in the 16th round. Besides, Ruutu was dropped a month or so after the initial deal, not immediately thereafter.

    Cheers.

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    I might be missing something here. But at what point did team B realize that they had traded a first round pick? If they didn't realize this until recently, it would explain why they didn't raise an issue until now.

    I just can't see how anyone could view a last place team trading their first round draft pick for an old, injured guy and a 4th round pick as a "normal" trade. I find it incredible that no other team raised an issue with that trade right off the bat. I just can't believe that Team B understood what they were trading, and I think it comes down to the way you have your rules and footnotes set up. Seriously, is a 16th round pick = 1st round pick the best you can do? Seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by als_revenge View Post
    I might be missing something here. But at what point did team B realize that they had traded a first round pick? If they didn't realize this until recently, it would explain why they didn't raise an issue until now.
    The issue was raised on April 2 which one can assume is when it was realized.

    I just can't see how anyone could view a last place team trading their first round draft pick for an old, injured guy and a 4th round pick as a "normal" trade. I find it incredible that no other team raised an issue with that trade right off the bat.
    The trade was made on Feb 28, which was approximately half way through the shortened season, so where the teams would finish was not yet determined.

    In general, the league is pretty good about letting GMs manage their own teams. People need to be allowed to make mistakes. Other trades (from other GMs) that went down this year include:

    Karlsson, 1st, 3rd for Iginla, Chara, 6th, 7th
    Read for Havlat
    RNH/Huberdeau/1st for Crosby/7th

    Some might consider those lopsided too.

    I just can't believe that Team B understood what they were trading, and I think it comes down to the way you have your rules and footnotes set up. Seriously, is a 16th round pick = 1st round pick the best you can do? Seriously?
    As I'm not the commish, I believe it is the best that can be done on the Yahoo setup. We have 15 keepers, so that takes up the first 15 rounds of the draft. It doesn't strike me as being overly complicated. However, if there is a better way to set it up on Yahoo, I'd love suggestions that I can pass on to the commissioner to make it more clear for the future.

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