View Poll Results: Kessel or Seguin who is the better real world hockey player right now.

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  • Kessel

    32 50.00%
  • Seguin

    32 50.00%
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Thread: Kessel or Seguin who is the better hockey player today!

  1. #31
    smoothfun's Avatar
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    Thanks bbb , this is a fantasy hockey site right?
    I could have sworn I signed out of that other chat room , mind you we were discussing sequins and cooking vessels...so who won the recipee trade ; the Flaming Alaska owner or the one who gave up 2 key ingrediants in thier recipee?

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by smoothfun View Post
    I like Kessel but didn't Boston steal the deal by aquiring Rask in that trade?

    Imagine Rask as TOs' starter right now...sorry Leaf fans.
    Not sure if anyone has commented on this yet but Rask was not part of the Kessel trade. Now we're really getting into 'smash my face off a cement curb' territory...thanks for that

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Guvnah View Post
    Kessel makes the Leafs better AT THIS POINT than Seguin would.
    I wholeheartedly disagree. What are you basing this on?

  4. #34
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    So what was the trade that brought Rask to Boston?

    If my memory is still half right I'm sure he was more of a throw in
    on T.O.s part and I'm sure Boston had done thier homework on him.

    Could swear there was a swap of goalies in that trade.

    I know sonmeone will clear this question up quickly , so thanks in advance!
    Roto type keeper league.We keep any 6 ;15 teams , 3 div. of 5.We play 3 lines , 3 def. and start 2 goalies.6 BN.Stats are 1pt. for goals and assists , 2pts. for W , tie(O.T. or S.O. loss) 1pt. S.O. 1pt.Weekly line-up from Mon. to Sun. Total pts. per line against other teams lines.

    LW - Ovechkin , Drouin ,Steen , Huberdeau
    RW - Nash , Callahan , Nyquist
    C - B. Schenn , Fisher , R.N.H. , St. Louis , T. Johnson
    Def.- E. Johnson , Gologoski , Suter , Doughty , O.E.L.
    G - Scheinder , Dubnyk , Lack

  5. #35
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    It was Rask for Raycroft.. Leafs favoured Pogge over Rask at the time so they saw Rask as expendable..
    Pogge was then traded eventually to Anaheim for a conditional draft pick in 2011.

    So in hindsight basically Rask for nothing
    Last edited by Brosive; April 6, 2013 at 9:01 AM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    Bingo.
    Not only is Seguin the better all around player, the Bruins gained tremendous cap flexibility which played a big factor in their cup win. Hamilton and Knight are gravy.

    Kessel is probably the more dynamic offensive threat, but if I'm building a team from scratch, and I had to choose one of these guys as a cornerstone... it is Seguin for me, easily. And that's coming from a Leafs fan!
    You know what I find truly bizzare about this conversation? It's the LEAFS fans arguing against Kessel and everyone else arguing for him......this would seem to counter the argument that Leafs fans all see the team through rose coloured glasses.

    For those people choosing Seguin over Kessel I just want to throw a few stats out there to chew on.

    Segin:

    CorsiRel QoC: 0.656 (10th on the Bruins)
    CorsiRel QoT: 15.742 (3rd on Bruins)
    Corsi Rel: 21.70 (1st on the Bruins and one of the best in the entire league)
    Corsi On: 26.00 (2nd on the Bruins and also one of the best in the entire league)

    Kessel:

    CorseRel Qoc: 0.748 (12th on the Leafs)
    CorsiRel QoT: 1.675 (9th on the Leafs)
    Corsi Rel: 6.2 (7th on the Leafs)
    Corsi On: -6.81 (10th on the Leafs)

    So, what can we take away from this (I will extrapolate a bit based on stats not mentioned above but please feel free to dig into this yourself or raise questions here and I'll attempt to blunder through the answers).

    First of all, Seguin/Bergeron/Marchand are WAY more effective than Kessel/Bozak/JVR (or Lupul). In fact, Seguin's line is one of the most effective lines in the league. They are among the league leaders in almost all advanced statistical measures of puck possesion and generating offensive pressure. Kessel's line isn't even the best line on the Leafs (who are horrible overall) in any of these categories. Kari, Frattin and Macarthur are the top Leafs players in most advanced statistical measures! I'm sure nobody's surprised by Kadri but I bet the other two names raised a few eyebrows. Kadri is the ONLY player on the Leafs to even register a positive Corsi rating.

    Seguin's 'quality of linemates' stats are far better than Kessels and there is a very strong argument to be made in how much of a detriment Bozak has been for Kessel's advanced stats (common Leafs fans....keep telling me how important their 'chemistry' is). However, I would make a very strong argument that Kessel's two-way game is so poor that while everyone is ohhing and ahhing over his latest rush they're ignoring the fact that Reimer is getting peppered while he's out there. Teams don't win very often when their star players are on the ice for more shots against than for.

    I don't care that Kessel scores 30-40 goals, I dont' care that he's an elite skater or shooter, all I care about is winning and Seguin does so much more to help his team win that I don't even think this is a close debate.

  7. #37
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    Thanks Brosive , I knew it was some sort of goalie swap.

    Raycroft won the Calder the year before and went nowhere fast after the trade.

    Pogge never amounted to anything and Rask , well "nuff" said.

    Hand it to the Bruins staff for doing thier homework.
    It has won them a cup and produced one of the best all around teams in the league!
    Roto type keeper league.We keep any 6 ;15 teams , 3 div. of 5.We play 3 lines , 3 def. and start 2 goalies.6 BN.Stats are 1pt. for goals and assists , 2pts. for W , tie(O.T. or S.O. loss) 1pt. S.O. 1pt.Weekly line-up from Mon. to Sun. Total pts. per line against other teams lines.

    LW - Ovechkin , Drouin ,Steen , Huberdeau
    RW - Nash , Callahan , Nyquist
    C - B. Schenn , Fisher , R.N.H. , St. Louis , T. Johnson
    Def.- E. Johnson , Gologoski , Suter , Doughty , O.E.L.
    G - Scheinder , Dubnyk , Lack

  8. #38
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    wow looks like another PPG season for Kessel.

    Really looking like hes stepped up his game at the most important part of the season. Playingg the best hockey of his career

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparrowtrini View Post
    wow looks like another PPG season for Kessel.

    Really looking like hes stepped up his game at the most important part of the season. Playingg the best hockey of his career
    Haven't you heard? His Corsi sucks! Focus on the important stuff would ya!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
    Haven't you heard? His Corsi sucks! Focus on the important stuff would ya!
    Hmm points are not important? Leadership is not important? Improved defensive game is not important?

  11. #41
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    For the longest time I've been firmly on the Seguin side of this debate, and I've never been a huge fan of Kessel's, but his last 2 seasons of productivity don't lie. To Kessel's credit, I really do believe he has grown as a player - he is no longer the one dimensional sniper he was before, and his consistency and 2 way play has improved a ton.

    The big factor holding Seguin back is opportunity, but it's hard to definitively say whether he would be as good or better than Kessel if he had as much ice time.

    Currently, I think it is impossible not to give Kessel the nod as the better player... the numbers aren't even close.
    Last edited by blayze; April 26, 2013 at 3:59 PM.
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    Good analysis. However, I don't feel the comparison is valid since Bergeron is one of the best 2 way players in the game (probably top 5). Bozak?...

    Is there a way to separate the linemate effect? I imagine you would have to use the small sample size when they weren't with those linemates. I am not too familiar with advanced stat interpretation so pardon if it is obvious.

    LTL
    Quote Originally Posted by 4horsemen View Post
    You know what I find truly bizzare about this conversation? It's the LEAFS fans arguing against Kessel and everyone else arguing for him......this would seem to counter the argument that Leafs fans all see the team through rose coloured glasses.

    For those people choosing Seguin over Kessel I just want to throw a few stats out there to chew on.

    Segin:

    CorsiRel QoC: 0.656 (10th on the Bruins)
    CorsiRel QoT: 15.742 (3rd on Bruins)
    Corsi Rel: 21.70 (1st on the Bruins and one of the best in the entire league)
    Corsi On: 26.00 (2nd on the Bruins and also one of the best in the entire league)

    Kessel:

    CorseRel Qoc: 0.748 (12th on the Leafs)
    CorsiRel QoT: 1.675 (9th on the Leafs)
    Corsi Rel: 6.2 (7th on the Leafs)
    Corsi On: -6.81 (10th on the Leafs)

    So, what can we take away from this (I will extrapolate a bit based on stats not mentioned above but please feel free to dig into this yourself or raise questions here and I'll attempt to blunder through the answers).

    First of all, Seguin/Bergeron/Marchand are WAY more effective than Kessel/Bozak/JVR (or Lupul). In fact, Seguin's line is one of the most effective lines in the league. They are among the league leaders in almost all advanced statistical measures of puck possesion and generating offensive pressure. Kessel's line isn't even the best line on the Leafs (who are horrible overall) in any of these categories. Kari, Frattin and Macarthur are the top Leafs players in most advanced statistical measures! I'm sure nobody's surprised by Kadri but I bet the other two names raised a few eyebrows. Kadri is the ONLY player on the Leafs to even register a positive Corsi rating.

    Seguin's 'quality of linemates' stats are far better than Kessels and there is a very strong argument to be made in how much of a detriment Bozak has been for Kessel's advanced stats (common Leafs fans....keep telling me how important their 'chemistry' is). However, I would make a very strong argument that Kessel's two-way game is so poor that while everyone is ohhing and ahhing over his latest rush they're ignoring the fact that Reimer is getting peppered while he's out there. Teams don't win very often when their star players are on the ice for more shots against than for.

    I don't care that Kessel scores 30-40 goals, I dont' care that he's an elite skater or shooter, all I care about is winning and Seguin does so much more to help his team win that I don't even think this is a close debate.

  13. #43
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    LTL - I certainly agree that it's tough to tease out the effects of a linemate when evaluating the stats (I did try to mention this in my post but maybe failed to get it across). What I can say is that the stats suggest that Bergeron isn't having as much of a positive impact on Seguin as the negative impact Bozak is having on Kessel (with regards to relative puck possession/offensive opportunities). Bergeron actually has very similar advanced stats to Seguin and Seguin is ahead of him in some categories whereas Kessel is ahead of Bozak in nearly every category.

    So to answer your question, yes, if Bergeron played with Kessel then Phil would have considerably better looking stats BUT there's nothing to suggest that Kessel has the two-way game to match Seguin's stats no matter what the line combo.

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    Kessel's better right now and please nobody try to act smart for looking at what the stats tell you.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luffy D Monkey View Post
    Kessel's better right now and please nobody try to act smart for looking at what the stats tell you.
    Case closed! You must do this for a living

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