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Thread: Wow - SJ at the bottom of the barrel

  1. #16
    lockedge's Avatar
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    Team went, what...12 straight games of scoring 2 or less goals (shootout results not included, just regulation and OT)?

    They're incredibly predictable, they play slow and don't utilize the speed that they have in a few of their players, too many didn't play during the lockout, and the 3rd and 4th lines are usually so unproductive that teams don't even need to worry about them. They have one line worth stopping, and a second that, due to Havlat and Clowe being dead weight, can't really do anything. Not that couture hasn't had room for improvement, but when you're spending 42% of your ES shifts with Clowe and havlat, both of whom have been rather useless, it's kind of hard to hate on the guy. :\

    But yes. I agree with tgraveline, it's time for the Sharks organization to stop pretending they can challenge for the cup. They've spent the last decade trying, this run is at an end. It was a damn good one, if I say so myself, despite the lack of a cup win. At least there were entertaining playoff rounds. Break the core apart, re-tool for another go in a few years.
    ZFHL
    ------------
    Ovechkin-Couture-Kovalchuk
    Benn-Ott-Eriksson
    Halischuk-Berglund-S.Thornton
    Bowman-Legwand-Mitchell
    Faulk-Orlov
    Martin-Y.Weber
    Wilson-Smid
    Niemi

    Butler,Horak,Nodl,Omark,Bartulis, Carson,Demers,Staios,Garon,Schneider

    PROSPECTS
    Nyquist,Bennett,Guptill,Haula,Knight, Kristo,Ranford,Rieder,Sundher,Barberio
    Dumoulin,Deslauriers,Janosik,Klefbom
    Ness,Sproul,Vatanen,Poulin

  2. #17
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    These guys have always been a more talented version of the Flames.

    Endless mediocrity... no heart and soul. This team simply does not have winners. Non of their guys want it bad enough.

    Hopefully they will confront reality soon and rebuild.

  3. #18
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    Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about them, they always seem to have that Feb/Mar lull, but always finish the season strong in the end of March and into April.

    2011-12: 10-4-1 (2.93 GF/game)
    2010-11: 12-4-3 (3.63 GF/game)
    2009-10: 11-7-2 (2.95 GF/game)
    2008-09: 11-8-2 (2.33 GF/game)

    Been there seen it all before, now's probably the best time to pick up Sharks in a "buy low" to be honest.

    Also the scheduling is in their favour in the second half too.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobo1969 View Post
    I find it a bit of a coincidence that most of the SJ vets did NOT play else where during the lockout and its showing. Seems like some of them are running out of gas already.
    Thornton is the only consistant performer thus far in terms of production and I think its because he went to the Swiss league, played a lot of games and had a good run there.
    I respect your answer, but how does NOT playing explain the red hot start. One would think NOT playing would lead to a slow start by not being in game shape and playing well once they get their game legs.
    Points only, 26 team keeper league. keep 8 + 4 prospects. 2 LW,2 RW, 2C, 4 D and G. 1 point goal,1 point assist
    Goalies. 2 points win, 1 for O/T or Shoot out loss, 3 for SO, 2 for assist, 10 for goal. Minus 1 for a loss
    Draft 8 more through draft. Need to have 11 on main team, 9 on reserve. Once roster set, can add 1 injured reserve spot.

    Roster:
    LW JVR, Steen, Hagelin
    C Malkin, E. Staal, Nelson
    RW Okposo, Wheeler, Donskoi
    D Demers, Pulock, Savard, Vlasic
    G Holtby

    prospects: Frost, Sprong, Andersson, Bear, Niku, Katchouk

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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    These guys have always been a more talented version of the Flames.

    Endless mediocrity... no heart and soul. This team simply does not have winners. Non of their guys want it bad enough.

    Hopefully they will confront reality soon and rebuild.
    I agree with most of this. I don't think they need to do a full scale rebuild but they clearly need to make more than a few changes. This team as is will never win a cup.
    Fantrax - Salary cap dynasty - cap hit - H2H each category
    Start: 2C, 2LW, 2RW, 4D, 2UTIL, 2G, 6 Bench, 4IR
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    C: Getzlaf, Turris, Eakin, ____
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    D: Pietrangelo, JJ, Streit, Brodie, Benn, ____
    G: Lundqvist, Bishop, Holtby

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  6. #21
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    All the vets including Havlat has NMCs. With the nice weather and no media spotlight its a good place to retire. I think Joe and Patty shows plenty of heart, they need a new coaching system and a new GM that doesnt aim to copy last years SC winner. Yeah a few high draft picks and move the deadmeat (Havlat/Murray/Clowe) would also help. Doug Wilson has drainded the prospect pool so a rebuild will be long and painful.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marwin View Post
    I think Joe and Patty shows plenty of heart
    I could not possibly disagree more. Those two are exactly who my comments were directed at.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    I could not possibly disagree more. Those two are exactly who my comments were directed at.
    Theyve been Sharks best defensive forwards for the last two seasons better than pavs, couture. All this crap about Joe never showing up in the playoffs is getting really outdated. Ive been along time Shark fan and for the last couple of seasons including playoffs I have nothing bad to say about those two, before that yes I agree. T Mac as a coach is constantly getting out coached. Sharks got a GM that around tdl is selling of valuable pices like McGuinn + numerous draft picks like its peanuts. Yes this team has absolutley no identity because every season they are told to play like last years winners Ducks, Hawks, Detroit etc weve seen bad versions of all these teams in a teal uniform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marwin View Post
    Theyve been Sharks best defensive forwards for the last two seasons better than pavs, couture. All this crap about Joe never showing up in the playoffs is getting really outdated. Ive been along time Shark fan and for the last couple of seasons including playoffs I have nothing bad to say about those two, before that yes I agree. T Mac as a coach is constantly getting out coached. Sharks got a GM that around tdl is selling of valuable pices like McGuinn + numerous draft picks like its peanuts. Yes this team has absolutley no identity because every season they are told to play like last years winners Ducks, Hawks, Detroit etc weve seen bad versions of all these teams in a teal uniform.
    I don't know what team you've been watching but when I compare Jumbo Joe and Marleau to guys who've won like Toews, Crosby, Brown, Datsyuk/Zetter, Getzlaf, etc I don't think there's any comparison. I'm not even talking about talent, I'm talking about who wants it more and who goes out and lays it all on the line and sets the tone for their team.

    Those two are not leaders - they are not good at rallying the troops and extracting the maximum effort. Whenever they have their backs against the wall in the playoffs and you just look at their faces during the cam close-ups and they always look like defeated souls. You would never see that face on Zetter, Toews or Crosby.
    Last edited by blayze; March 10, 2013 at 1:41 PM.

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    When I see Thornton & Marleau these days, I see players too comfortable waiting to retire. They are not the players of seasons ago. Not hungry enough. Playing in SJ is too easy and why you see a lot of players opting for these locations. These guys couldnt handle playing in Toronto or Montreal.

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    Yeah well I dont buy into the public picture that Joe becomes this big teddybear that just wants to cuddle during the playoffs. I really belive he wants it and wants it bad.

    Not trying to make excuses but that Hawks team was ridiculously stacked. Wings a team that played the same system forever and all the players buy into it.
    The Ducks played borderline beerleague hockey on their way to the cup, remember this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzC05QuAkZ4?

    So youre absolutly right the Shark lack identity. But I still stand by my statement that theyve been the best players on the Sharks roster the last two playoffs, as a team theyve played like crap during those two playoffs, outplayed, outcoached, outworked.

    If all these old farts agreed to waive their NMCs yes I would very much like a rebuild but not with current management/coach that would be a recipe for disaster. Im saying Sharks problems goes way deeper than Patty and Joe Ill just leave it at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
    When I see Thornton & Marleau these days, I see players too comfortable waiting to retire. They are not the players of seasons ago. Not hungry enough. Playing in SJ is too easy and why you see a lot of players opting for these locations. These guys couldnt handle playing in Toronto or Montreal.
    Sharks never wins the bidding wars for FAs young or old so that SoCal is some kind of retirement paradise for NHL players aint exactly true, who/wich players are you thinking about?

  13. #28
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    I'll agree that Marleau and Joe have heart. For a few years, I doubted Joe, and a few years I got really frustrated with Patty's tendency to get injured in the post-season...but recently, they've tried hard.

    And I'm sorry, comparing Getzlaf to Marleau/Thornton and saying Getzlaf wants it more? What? I can see Toews, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Crosby, but Getzlaf? That guy has so much potential, and aside from a single playoff run, I haven't seen him try to come close to it. You want someone who year in, year out is Mr Neutral, you go take a good look at Getzlaf. Frustrates the shit out of me.

    The Sharks' problem in recent years has rarely been their core forwards, it's been their coaching, their defense, and their lack of offensive depth. One and a half scoring lines can't win a cup, and I hate seeing Patty and Joe blamed for their team's failures when they've got crap like Pat Rissmiller, Jim Fahey, Frazer McLaren, Brad Staubitz, Ben Eager, Benn Ferreiro, Nic Wallin, Doug Murray, Jamal mayers, Dwight helminen, etc. playing...hell, I'll never forget that single shift when Pat Rissmiller failed to dump the puck out of the zone four times, each time sending the pick toward Lidstrom or Zetterberg, or whomever. I'll never forget all those playoff games where the Sharks got early 2 goal leads and the coaching staff decided to sit back and defend the lead, even though it wasn't even the 2nd period yet. I remember the year when the Sharks had a solid team, but faced a hot goalie in Jonas Hiller, and despite outshooting, out-chancing and outworking the ducks to a considerable degree, the blame once again fell on Nabby, Marleau and Joe. Just like it did when they lost to Dallas back in '08, despite it being possibly the most entertaining Sharks-related playoff series I've ever witnessed, with both teams playing excellent hockey. Yeah, they lost to Chicago in 4 games in the WCF a while back, but that series was close as hell and it could have quite easily been San jose sweeping the hawks by how each team played.

    Sometimes you just don't have the supporting cast, sometimes you just get unlucky. Sometimes heart isn't enough, and people only look at the result instead of the effort. Marleau could have the most fire for winning in the playoffs, but it won't change a flukey bounce off a stanchion, falling on Bieksa's stick for him to slam into the net while everyone wonders where the hell the puck is. Joe could have all the fire to win in the playoffs, but if the refs give the opposing team a full second period of 5 on 4 and 5 on 3 powerplays, you can't really do a heck of a lot about that. Either of them could want to win so badly, but if you've got a separated shoulder, you're not going to be able to do much with the puck.

    The playoffs are a hell of a lot of luck, and sometimes the bounces just aren't there. Sometimes individual effort isn't enough. Collective effort and skill is what's more important in the playoffs. You need everyone on their A game, and for everyone's A game to be good enough. Whenever the sharks have had a marginally decent bottom six, their defense has been horrid. Whenever their defense has been good enough, their bottom six has been horrendous. Most of these years, their coaching has lacked the ability to adapt.

    It's been more than just Patty and jumbo. And it's hard bringing talent into the area, it seems, as trades have really been the primary route, rather than free agency.
    ZFHL
    ------------
    Ovechkin-Couture-Kovalchuk
    Benn-Ott-Eriksson
    Halischuk-Berglund-S.Thornton
    Bowman-Legwand-Mitchell
    Faulk-Orlov
    Martin-Y.Weber
    Wilson-Smid
    Niemi

    Butler,Horak,Nodl,Omark,Bartulis, Carson,Demers,Staios,Garon,Schneider

    PROSPECTS
    Nyquist,Bennett,Guptill,Haula,Knight, Kristo,Ranford,Rieder,Sundher,Barberio
    Dumoulin,Deslauriers,Janosik,Klefbom
    Ness,Sproul,Vatanen,Poulin

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by lockedge View Post
    I'll agree that Marleau and Joe have heart. For a few years, I doubted Joe, and a few years I got really frustrated with Patty's tendency to get injured in the post-season...but recently, they've tried hard.

    And I'm sorry, comparing Getzlaf to Marleau/Thornton and saying Getzlaf wants it more? What? I can see Toews, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Crosby, but Getzlaf? That guy has so much potential, and aside from a single playoff run, I haven't seen him try to come close to it. You want someone who year in, year out is Mr Neutral, you go take a good look at Getzlaf. Frustrates the shit out of me.

    The Sharks' problem in recent years has rarely been their core forwards, it's been their coaching, their defense, and their lack of offensive depth. One and a half scoring lines can't win a cup, and I hate seeing Patty and Joe blamed for their team's failures when they've got crap like Pat Rissmiller, Jim Fahey, Frazer McLaren, Brad Staubitz, Ben Eager, Benn Ferreiro, Nic Wallin, Doug Murray, Jamal mayers, Dwight helminen, etc. playing...hell, I'll never forget that single shift when Pat Rissmiller failed to dump the puck out of the zone four times, each time sending the pick toward Lidstrom or Zetterberg, or whomever. I'll never forget all those playoff games where the Sharks got early 2 goal leads and the coaching staff decided to sit back and defend the lead, even though it wasn't even the 2nd period yet. I remember the year when the Sharks had a solid team, but faced a hot goalie in Jonas Hiller, and despite outshooting, out-chancing and outworking the ducks to a considerable degree, the blame once again fell on Nabby, Marleau and Joe. Just like it did when they lost to Dallas back in '08, despite it being possibly the most entertaining Sharks-related playoff series I've ever witnessed, with both teams playing excellent hockey. Yeah, they lost to Chicago in 4 games in the WCF a while back, but that series was close as hell and it could have quite easily been San jose sweeping the hawks by how each team played.

    Sometimes you just don't have the supporting cast, sometimes you just get unlucky. Sometimes heart isn't enough, and people only look at the result instead of the effort. Marleau could have the most fire for winning in the playoffs, but it won't change a flukey bounce off a stanchion, falling on Bieksa's stick for him to slam into the net while everyone wonders where the hell the puck is. Joe could have all the fire to win in the playoffs, but if the refs give the opposing team a full second period of 5 on 4 and 5 on 3 powerplays, you can't really do a heck of a lot about that. Either of them could want to win so badly, but if you've got a separated shoulder, you're not going to be able to do much with the puck.

    The playoffs are a hell of a lot of luck, and sometimes the bounces just aren't there. Sometimes individual effort isn't enough. Collective effort and skill is what's more important in the playoffs. You need everyone on their A game, and for everyone's A game to be good enough. Whenever the sharks have had a marginally decent bottom six, their defense has been horrid. Whenever their defense has been good enough, their bottom six has been horrendous. Most of these years, their coaching has lacked the ability to adapt.

    It's been more than just Patty and jumbo. And it's hard bringing talent into the area, it seems, as trades have really been the primary route, rather than free agency.
    I'm sorry but when your excuse is lack of talent when it comes to the Sharks than I think you're out to lunch. Funny you mention all of their crappy bench players (which every team has), yet you oddly leave out all of their stars over the years including Pavelski / Clowe / Boyle / Heater / Couture / Nabakov / Niemi. They've had star defensemen, forwards and goalies. For over half a decade, the Sharks were consistently one of the most stacked paper teams in the league, and they ALWAYS came into the playoffs as one of the favourites after winning or coming close to winning their conference. What other team can ice 2 legitimate #1 lines? And I would argue Pavelski's line showed up more often than Jumbo Joe's in the playoffs.

    As for Getzlaf, are you kidding me? I would take Getz over Jumbo Joe in a game 7 ANY DAY. You must have missed their epic battles with the wings over the years. The diff between Getz and Thornton is that the ducks literally had only ONE line, so Getz/Perry carried the entire team routinely playing 30+ minutes a game. They didn't have a pavelski/clowe line to take the heat off.

    You what I noticed a lot of in the third paragraph of your response? The word "but"... but they ran into a hot goalie, but a fluke off a stanchion... but the series was close. Well guess what... you just listed a whole bunch of excuses that are inevitable in every playoffs. You will ALWAYS run into a hot goalie at some point, there will always be flukes and lucky bounces, and every series will be close... these are ALL things that define playoff hockey.

    Sorry, appreciate your detailed response, but it was not convincing, not one bit. Joe and Marleau will always be losers in my eyes... just like the Sedins and just like the Caps (back when they were contenders). Tons of talent, no heart.

  15. #30
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    Even Torts agrees with me
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