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Thread: Erik Karlsson

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    Do you guys expect this kind of injury could effect him long term? What's recovery been like with regards to other players that have been injured like this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GretzkysMullet View Post
    Do you guys expect this kind of injury could effect him long term? What's recovery been like with regards to other players that have been injured like this?
    Excellent question. That is the scariest thing about it. Any medical people on the boards?
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    LW - E. Kane, Pacioretty, Zetterberg, Kusnetsov, Connolly, MacArthur,
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    Quote Originally Posted by GretzkysMullet View Post
    Do you guys expect this kind of injury could effect him long term? What's recovery been like with regards to other players that have been injured like this?
    Don't think so, mostly every other player has come back fine, and this wasn't a 100% cut so it's even better. Doctors said nothing should be different post-injury for Karlsson, it was an easy procedure and pretty easy (but long) rehab.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakkster View Post
    That song is from "Karlsson på taket" (Karlsson on the roof), written by Astrid Lindgren, the woman who wrote Pippi Longstocking and looooaaaads of other beloved children's stories. I always hated that song because the character was the most annoying, selfish, lying trickster ever.
    Yeah I looked it up haha. He is the world's best Karlsson!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
    I know I agreed that we should put the thread to rest, but I'm going to respond to this. You're missing the point of my posts above. Recklessness = intent. It's not the same as specific intent to cut, but it is still a culpable mental element connected to the action that attracts moral blameworthiness. That's simple ethics. If you act in a matter wherein it is obvious to any reasonable person that your action can cause harm, and are recklessness as to whether or not that harm ensues, then you are culpable for whatever harm results. You are not "innocent".

    To say it is "suspicious" merely suggests that there is a possibility of either specific intent or the somewhat lesser form of intent known as recklessness.

    And yes, I have that suspicion. I've watched the replay many times and it is very possible that he intended to step on Karlsson. Can I prove it? No. That's why I said he shouldn't be punished.

    Calling it a "conspiracy theory" was simply a rhetorical tool to dismiss the point without actually considering it on its merits. Perhaps it's an epistomological point, but claiming it was "obviously an accident" in this circumstances is not a statement of fact, but rather a statement of belief.

    You can believe it was accident. Hell, the majority of people can. Just don't mistake that as any more than a conclusion of belief based on the available evidence. It is not a statement of absolute truth that allows one to denigrate those who are drawing a different, but still logically permissible, conclusion based on the same evidence.
    But that's just incorrect. In no way does "recklessness" equal intent. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Recklessness may bridge the gap between accidental and "on purpose", but in now way, shape or form does it suggest intent. In fact, "reckless" is clearly defined as "doing something without caution". Nowhere is it suggested that intent is a part of that, again, it's quite the opposite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GretzkysMullet View Post
    Do you guys expect this kind of injury could effect him long term? What's recovery been like with regards to other players that have been injured like this?
    I believe Teemu had this exact injury when he was 23 or 24 so . . . yeah, I think Karlsson will be just fine next year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridinryan44 View Post
    But that's just incorrect. In no way does "recklessness" equal intent. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Recklessness may bridge the gap between accidental and "on purpose", but in now way, shape or form does it suggest intent. In fact, "reckless" is clearly defined as "doing something without caution". Nowhere is it suggested that intent is a part of that, again, it's quite the opposite.
    Actually it isn't.

    I think the problem we're having is with the definition of "intent". You seem to equate intent with "motive". Intent, as I understand it, is not an individual's motive in carrying out an action. So, I don't think it has to be established that he intended to cut Karlsson's achilles, or that he intended to cut him at all. That's motive.

    Here's a wikipedia article that I hope will explain what I'm getting at:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

    The issue in ethics is moral blameworthiness. If I see a crowd of people and I fire a gun and person A dies, I can honestly say that I didn't intend to hurt or kill person A. However, that doesn't mean I escape culpability for their death. If, on an objective analysis, it can be said that I fired the weapon recklessly, that means that I knew or ought to have known that death or injury was the probable result of my decision to fire the weapon. Knowing that, and still firing, makes me culpable for person A's death just as it would if directly fired at him with a motive to kill.

    So "intent" refers to the belief that people intend the natural (or probable) causes of their actions.

    To determine what is "reckless", some thought would have to be given for what is a normal everyday play in that situation. Can we fairly impute knowledge on Cooke that by lifting his leg and bringing it down and forward with force (which he did), that he knew or ought to have known their was a serious risk of a skate cut? If so, unless the action itself is so inherent to the game that players can be taken to have voluntarily assumed an obvious risk, then it is reckless. As I tried to explain (and maybe I'm not doing it very well), "recklessness" is a level of intent. Remember in my example, I may not have intended to injure person A, but I did intend to fire the weapon at a crowd while I knew or ought to have known that an injury or death was a likely result and therefore from an ethical point of view, I am culpable for the death.

    Now, I fully admitted at the outset that I was not in a position at this point to conclude beyond doubt that the play was reckless. My point is that if you accept that it was reckless, as Dakkster did, that leads to a logical and ethical conclusion that Cooke did something morally wrong and deserves consequences. That is not synonymous with an "accident".

    I suspect that he was reckless, but I have not taken the time to analyze it and study similar plays to the point where I can comfortably say he was in fact reckless. If I was so satisfied, then I would be advocating for a severe punishment.

    So, I think the problem between us is that we have a different definition for intent. To me, "intent" means that a person intends the natural or probable consequences of their actions. As I understand your definition, "intent" would mean a subjective motive.

    Now, as for a subjective motive, yes I do suspect. That's a reaction to watching the situation and considering the past practices of the actor involved. And I would submit that that is a permissible logical inference that can be drawn from the situation. You could also conclude that it was an accident. That's why in my posts above that I wasn't calling for Cooke's head. I still believe however that concluding beyond doubt that it was an accident and that anyone who disagrees is an irrational Senators' fan is intellectually dishonest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
    Actually it isn't.

    I think the problem we're having is with the definition of "intent". You seem to equate intent with "motive". Intent, as I understand it, is not an individual's motive in carrying out an action. So, I don't think it has to be established that he intended to cut Karlsson's achilles, or that he intended to cut him at all. That's motive.

    Here's a wikipedia article that I hope will explain what I'm getting at:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

    The issue in ethics is moral blameworthiness. If I see a crowd of people and I fire a gun and person A dies, I can honestly say that I didn't intend to hurt or kill person A. However, that doesn't mean I escape culpability for their death. If, on an objective analysis, it can be said that I fired the weapon recklessly, that means that I knew or ought to have known that death or injury was the probable result of my decision to fire the weapon. Knowing that, and still firing, makes me culpable for person A's death just as it would if directly fired at him with a motive to kill.

    So "intent" refers to the belief that people intend the natural (or probable) causes of their actions.

    To determine what is "reckless", some thought would have to be given for what is a normal everyday play in that situation. Can we fairly impute knowledge on Cooke that by lifting his leg and bringing it down and forward with force (which he did), that he knew or ought to have known their was a serious risk of a skate cut? If so, unless the action itself is so inherent to the game that players can be taken to have voluntarily assumed an obvious risk, then it is reckless. As I tried to explain (and maybe I'm not doing it very well), "recklessness" is a level of intent. Remember in my example, I may not have intended to injure person A, but I did intend to fire the weapon at a crowd while I knew or ought to have known that an injury or death was a likely result and therefore from an ethical point of view, I am culpable for the death.

    Now, I fully admitted at the outset that I was not in a position at this point to conclude beyond doubt that the play was reckless. My point is that if you accept that it was reckless, as Dakkster did, that leads to a logical and ethical conclusion that Cooke did something morally wrong and deserves consequences. That is not synonymous with an "accident".

    I suspect that he was reckless, but I have not taken the time to analyze it and study similar plays to the point where I can comfortably say he was in fact reckless. If I was so satisfied, then I would be advocating for a severe punishment.

    So, I think the problem between us is that we have a different definition for intent. To me, "intent" means that a person intends the natural or probable consequences of their actions. As I understand your definition, "intent" would mean a subjective motive.

    Now, as for a subjective motive, yes I do suspect. That's a reaction to watching the situation and considering the past practices of the actor involved. And I would submit that that is a permissible logical inference that can be drawn from the situation. You could also conclude that it was an accident. That's why in my posts above that I wasn't calling for Cooke's head. I still believe however that concluding beyond doubt that it was an accident and that anyone who disagrees is an irrational Senators' fan is intellectually dishonest.
    Haha. How can I argue when one puts in so much effort! Respectfully agree to disagree. Definitely a lot of perception involved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridinryan44 View Post
    Haha. How can I argue when one puts in so much effort! Respectfully agree to disagree. Definitely a lot of perception involved.
    You're right, perhaps I think about it too much because of the emotional investment. In any case, thanks for remaining civil during the exchange.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
    Recklessness = intent.
    No.

    (filler because the post is too short otherwise)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakkster View Post
    No.

    (filler because the post is too short otherwise)
    Well its not intentional it is certainly irresponsible.
    And failure to correct a consistant course hedges on intentional

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    Quote Originally Posted by smack View Post
    I believe Teemu had this exact injury when he was 23 or 24 so . . . yeah, I think Karlsson will be just fine next year.
    His second season, game 51 - I am pretty sure it was completely severed. Ironically it was against the Ducks (Trent Yawney's skate if I remember correctly).
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparrowtrini View Post
    Well its not intentional it is certainly irresponsible.
    And failure to correct a consistant course hedges on intentional
    Nope!

    (filler)
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