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Thread: Goalies to avoid this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericdaoust View Post
    They were not good last year.
    But Lehtonen was actually pretty good even with a crappy D in front of him.

    His numbers have been steadily improving every year since he seems to have squashed the injury bug that used to plague him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    Apparently, they see good things in their kids.
    I don't know... I don't think so.
    Dillon is good but you can't expect rookies to save your season.


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    Lehtonen is seriously underrated on these forums. He's one of those quiet guys who just delivers. He actually had a pretty good year last season despite how crappy you guys seem to think the Stars and their defense were. 32 wins, .922 sv% and 2.33 GAA - pretty damn solid.

    I think their team has actually improved this year, so those numbers should at least stay the same or improve.

    At least that's my hope considering I drafted Lehtonen in my cash pool!

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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    Lehtonen is seriously underrated on these forums. He's one of those quiet guys who just delivers. He actually had a pretty good year last season despite how crappy you guys seem to think the Stars and their defense were. 32 wins, .922 sv% and 2.33 GAA - pretty damn solid.

    I think their team has actually improved this year, so those numbers should at least stay the same or improve.

    At least that's my hope considering I drafted Lehtonen in my cash pool!

    Tell me, please... how exactly is Dallas defensively better this year?
    Lehtonen's .922 was 6 full points above his highest .916... and well above his previous average of about .913.
    And now Dallas is without 4 of those 7 defensemen from last year!!!

    I'll make you a friendly wager that Lehtonen will be under .920?
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    Do us all a favour and have this conversation with yourself every day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    Tell me, please... how exactly is Dallas defensively better this year?
    Who said anything about them being defensively better? Don't put words in my mouth. And for the most part, the defensemen they lost were crap anyway so I don't see why that's such a big deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    I think their team has actually improved this year, so those numbers should at least stay the same or improve.
    If Lehtonen is Lehtonen... how do those numbers improve unless the team is better defensively?
    (And don't act like you don't infer things from statements.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    If Lehtonen is Lehtonen... how do those numbers improve unless the team is better defensively?
    (And don't act like you don't infer things from statements.)
    Dude... I said: "I think their team has actually improved this year". That's a lot different then "I think their team has improved defensively this year".

    If those are the kind of inferences you're making then damn... I want a hit of that joint.

    So let me get this straight... you're suggesting numbers can only improve if a team is better defensively? There's this other facet of the game called offense, you may have heard of it. The Stars made great strides in improving their depth on that end this year, which should translate to a sick powerplay, more goals, more time spent in the offensive zone, and more wins.
    Last edited by blayze; January 17, 2013 at 3:12 PM.

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    Well I don't like having words put into my mouth, nor do I like being accused of wearing "blinders" for making a reasonable statement with a hint of cautious optimism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    If Lehtonen is Lehtonen... how do those numbers improve unless the team is better defensively?
    (And don't act like you don't infer things from statements.)
    I'm with Penguin on this one blayze, how is Dallas better defensively than last year? Personally when I see a player have a huge record year at this point in their career it sets off all the red flags and I'm thinking 'sell', not 'buy'

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    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    I'm with Penguin on this one blayze, how is Dallas better defensively than last year? Personally when I see a player have a huge record year at this point in their career it sets off all the red flags and I'm thinking 'sell', not 'buy'
    While I do agree with the point that Pengwin made about the team getting a lot softer, I don't really agree with the red flag perspective in this case. In Lehtonen's case a lot of what caused his career to derail was a lack of conditioning which led to more injuries which stunted his growth. Since getting to Dallas Lehtonen has been great, he's been on a new conditioning program that he seems to be following..and while I probably wouldn't describe Lehtonen as a hard buy, I don't think he's a guy that MUST be sold like some other players.

    PS: I'm loving this discussion. I originally posted this thread as a joke but it's gotten very insightful.

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    Perhaps Pengwin and blayze are arguing over the wrong thing here. I think blayze is coming from his perspective league which is W/SO only while Pengwin is also considering percentages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    So let me get this straight... you're suggesting numbers can only improve if a team is better defensively? There's this other facet of the game called offense, you may have heard of it. The Stars made great strides in improving their depth on that end this year, which should translate to a sick powerplay, more goals, more time spent in the offensive zone, and more wins.
    I think, when most people are talking about a goalie's numbers - they are thinking about his GAA & SV%.
    And Blayze... you did reference those numbers, so I'm assuming that those numbers are important to YOU... not just wins.

    I'll agree that the Stars might WIN more games.
    But a team's defense has a major impact on GAA and a significant impact on SV%.
    The Stars defensemen & defensive-forwards have both declined. I don't see how anybody could deny this. (not saying you are... not saying that...)
    Their #4 (Souray), #6 (Burish), #7 (Ribeiro), and #8 (Ott) +/- guys from last year are all gone from last year's team.


    You at least need to be clear what you are talking about with Lehtonen:
    *Wins
    *GAA? (you did reference this)
    *SV%? (you referenced this too)

    In Lehtonen's three years in Dallas he's posted .911/.914/.922 & 2.81/2.55/2.33... all improving numbers, which is good.
    Improving numbers do happen as goalies learn exactly what to expect from their own team - what angles to play, what shots they allow, etc..
    Goalies adapt to their environment and get better in it as they learn it.
    When it changes, there can be trouble. (I posted in another thread about Ryan Miller, the year after he lost two key defensemen: Tallinder & Lydman).

    With four defensemen gone & three solid +/- forwards gone from last year's team - how can anybody not forecast a decline (for GAA & SV%)?

    I'll end my argument here.
    You can have last go.
    (I sent you some REP because I'm sorry we keep getting into it... )
    Last edited by Pengwin7; January 17, 2013 at 3:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bondon View Post
    ..and while I probably wouldn't describe Lehtonen as a hard buy, I don't think he's a guy that MUST be sold like some other players.
    I think you misunderstood me...I'm not saying sell him at all costs or anything, if you own him and are happy with him then by all means he can be a good 'hold' for you. I'm saying that the best time to sell a guy (any guy) is after they post career stats, especially at this point in their career. Every once in awhile you might be wrong with this but 99 times out of 100 you won't be.

    Take another example, like Scott Hartnell...great player, I love him but here are his numbers since he entered the league (note: asterixes indicate injury seasons where I calculated his pts based off a full season for comparison sake):

    16, 41, 34, 46*, 48, 50*, 43, 60, 44, 49, 67

    does the shrewd GM buy him as a 67 pt forward or as a 50 pt forward?

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