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[ericdaoust]

I hope the fans show their displeasure at all the disrespect (or is it disregard) the NHL and NHLPA are showing them. This is a good read about fans' perspective on the lockout.

It's easy for me not to contribute: I live in Toronto where ticket prices are more than I'm willing to spend to see a crappy team. And I don't pay for NHL center ice or whatever other packages feed into the money pit from which the NHL digs. No jersies either, never quite got the appeal of that. But I'm afraid, a lot of fans won't be able to resist and will flock right back. These two greedy, shameless sides need to be taught a lesson.

Regardless of what happens in ticket sales, the lockout will hurt. The hardcore fans who follow this closely lose respect for the players and for their bosses. The non-fans think more highly of basketball and football because they had their lockouts too but "look at those dummies over there in hockey". It hurts the NHL's potential with sponsors and definitely hurts their chances of getting back on ESPN.

Myself, I am still a hockey guy but I do feel my inner hockey foundation crumbling a bit. My perspective on the sport has changed. Who knows, maybe in 5-10 years other things make hockey something I am rarely associated with.

[Bomm Bastic]

i dont think it is.

If bettman "owned" the league, and Fehr "owned" the players, then i might agree.

When was the last time you let your money manager make emotional decisions with your investments? Why would the owners let bettman get in a co<k fight with their cash? same for the players - why would the middle class allow donald fehr to mess with their careers and livelihood to win an emotional fight. Thats not what this is, even if it looks that way.

Bettman and Fehr work for their bosses, they have a business plan, and are both doing the best they can for their sides. These guys are shrewed negotiators, and we only get info via the media. We are not in the room. This is just part of the process.

I disagree. First, initially they are coming from two opposing perspectives. Bettman (owners) proactively locked the players out as a negotiating tactic (validity aside for the moment). Thus the players entered from a reactive position. The owners own, therefore they are in the position of power and it is they who dictate the ebb and flow of the discussions...ultimately.

Now that by no means mitigates nor excuses the boneheadedness of the NHLPA's negotiating tactics. But make no mistake there is a hierarchy between owners/players, as well within each respective group.

Which brings me to my next point. Your presumption that [all] the owners let bettman get in a co<k fight with their cash? is untrue on it's face. Maybe five owners are the ones actually pushing-pulling the league and by extension, Bettman in the direction they deem. The notion that all owners are created equal in the context of these discussion is..put nicely, not true.

Second, even if it were, the hubris that bloats these owners blinds them from any notion that could possibly "lose" these negotiations (and their cash). Therefore, the concept of risk escapes them, w/in the context of these discussions. Especially, when initial proposal were being bandied about.

The players...well, they had my empathy from the outset, but no longer. The players have become at this stage what the owners started out as - full of themselves. It's all ego, at this point, and the same hierarchy exists among the players as with the owners, with the chosen few millionaires dictating the course of action for the middle class.

[rtstr]

I hope the fans show their displeasure at all the disrespect (or is it disregard) the NHL and NHLPA are showing them. This is a good read about fans' perspective on the lockout.

It's easy for me not to contribute: I live in Toronto where ticket prices are more than I'm willing to spend to see a crappy team. And I don't pay for NHL center ice or whatever other packages feed into the money pit from which the NHL digs. No jersies either, never quite got the appeal of that. But I'm afraid, a lot of fans won't be able to resist and will flock right back. These two greedy, shameless sides need to be taught a lesson.

I agree with this. Not sure how they get off handling this the way they do when it's clearly the laughing-stock of all professional sports leagues. It would be great for the fans to stand up to these guys.

That being said, it's a bit of a catch-22. I love hockey. All other hockey fans love hockey. We don't have many "middle of the road" fans. So, what's the point of even starting the season again if we aren't going to go to games, or watch games on tv, or support the teams we like? After all, that's all I want to do, and I miss it so much. As much as the NHL deserves to be taught a lesson, they are the ones losing millions of dollars every day, not us. It's easy for fans to complain but the lockout hurts the players and the league way worse than it hurts us.

Not trying to justify it, because it's been nonsense for months now, but I for one know that I am going to try to go to as many Devils games as I can this year.

[Stan Smyl]

QUOTE=Bomm Bastic;1050037] Now that by no means mitigates nor excuses the boneheadedness of the NHLPA's negotiating tactics. But make no mistake there is a hierarchy between owners/players, as well within each respective group.

Which brings me to my next point. Your presumption that [all] the owners let bettman get in a co<k fight with their cash? is untrue on it's face. Maybe five owners are the ones actually pushing-pulling the league and by extension, Bettman in the direction they deem. The notion that all owners are created equal in the context of these discussion is..put nicely, not true. [/QUOTE]



fair points

[doulos]

I will be attending playoff games (if the Oilers ever make it there again) but will no longer attend any regular season games/buy NHL gear etc. Basically avoid giving the NHL and it's players/owners any money except for playoff tickets.

I know it won't make a difference but for me it's worth it.

[Loch]

Man, I knew shit would go south as soon as the Union let the disclaimer deadline pass.

Fehr (to players): Okay boys, we're close here so no need to disclaim interest when real progress is being made!

Bettman (to owners): See? They didn't disclaim interest, they're bluffing! I think it is time we tweak the HHR because we've got them where we want them! Victory is at hand!

Fehr seems to have underestimated the sheer power-play dickishness of his opponent and Bettman can't differentiate between good faith negotiation and weakness. Anyone wonder why nothing gets done?

[Stan Smyl]

Business plan??? You're kidding right? Go back and look at the NHL's business plan over the last 20 years. They even lost when they got the salary cap they wanted.

And the players... good business plan too right? Aren't these the same players that said hell no to a salary cap, lost a season and took the salary cap anyway? They are morons and are just looking for stuff to be mad about right now.

didnt the league double revenues in the last 7 years? Yes, Bettman has a plan. You dont operate a $3billion business without one. Even if its a few owners that have his back, they would not let this happen without a plan. And yes, there are probably flaws in his plan, but i believe he has played this thing out pretty close to exactly how he expected it to go.

*These might be the same players, but a different leader. This isnt Fehr's first rodeo.

[Bomm Bastic]

Man, I knew shit would go south as soon as the Union let the disclaimer deadline pass.

Fehr (to players): Okay boys, we're close here so no need to disclaim interest when real progress is being made!

Bettman (to owners): See? They didn't disclaim interest, they're bluffing! I think it is time we tweak the HHR because we've got them where we want them! Victory is at hand!

Fehr seems to have underestimated the sheer power-play dickishness of his opponent and Bettman can't differentiate between good faith negotiation and weakness.

Man it does seem that way, don't it? Not that Fehr has been a benevolent force in all this, but I kinda get why he is reluctant to give an inch (good faith or not), when it seems like Bettman is always waiting on an opportunity to pounce.

/exhausting

[ericdaoust]

*These might be the same players, but a different leader. This isnt Fehr's first rodeo.

But it's his last rodeo. He won't be around for the next CBA so he doesn't care if the NHL goes up in flames. He just has to convince the players that what they're fighting for is worth the 800+ million that they lost so far in salaries.

Revenues might be high but they would be so much higher if they didn't mess up all the time and actually kept the game on the ice.

[Bomm Bastic]

didnt the league double revenues in the last 7 years?

As an intended result of the last CBA negotiations? Perhaps. But I wouldn't assume that to be true, given the law of unintended consequences.

Which may sound purely cynical, granted (I tend toward that, I know), but given it took Bettman the better part of 20 yrs to realize his owners may be in need of a cap in order to maintain parity and stability, I would hazard a guess that "planning" isn't one of his strong suits. Reacting, certainly, but planning...not so much.

And Eric's correct, the league could have been generating even more revenue.

[grindin griers]

but given it took Bettman the better part of 20 yrs to realize his owners may be in need of a cap in order to maintain parity and stability, I would hazard a guess that "planning" isn't one of his strong suits.

His plan for a cap(along with his involvement in the NBA's implementation in a cap) is actually one of the main reasons he was hired. So he has had a plan since the beginning of his time with the NHL. Anyone that wants to know more about Bettman and what he has done with the league should read The Instigator. I am only half way through it right now but it is really pretty interesting if you are interested in the business side of the league.

Edit: Have to warn you though it isn't very well written.

[Bomm Bastic]

His plan for a cap(along with his involvement in the NBA's implementation in a cap) is actually one of the main reasons he was hired. So he has had a plan since the beginning of his time with the NHL. Anyone that wants to know more about Bettman and what he has done with the league should read The Instigator. I am only half way through it right now but it is really pretty interesting if you are interested in the business side of the league.

Edit: Have to warn you though it isn't very well written.

That may be true, I really don't know the historical motive behind the hiring of Bettman.

What I do know is that Fehr - dickish, passive-aggressive, and unpopular as he may be - has been able to keep Bettman completely off-balance during this entire process. All without really holding a true card to play. Hill-we-will-die-on be damned, Bettman's been negotiating against himself.

Wouldn't be surprised if he was gone after this farcical performance.

[Mr. Guru]

Get ready for some hockey!

[Bomm Bastic]

Get ready for some hockey!

Don't tease me, Guru.

[STONE.]

Get ready for some hockey!

Seriously. What do you know that we don't? Ha!