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Thread: NHL Lockout Clock

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericdaoust View Post
    Definitely agree with this. I was stating my view from the players' position. The fact that the owners are pricks should be irrelevant. The players missed the boat. I look at the previous offer and the one they are about to sign... factor in the lost money and hurting the league's potential for growth... that is a net loss for them.
    Sad, but true. The longer this has gone on, the dumber the players look.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericdaoust View Post
    Definitely agree with this. I was stating my view from the players' position. The fact that the owners are pricks should be irrelevant. The players missed the boat. I look at the previous offer and the one they are about to sign... factor in the lost money and hurting the league's potential for growth... that is a net loss for them.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    I'd say you can easily find clear, long term objective from Bettman's actions since he took over as commissioner. The salary cap was first step. He got it during the second attempt. Driving down the players salaries is another clear long-term objective that basically had to be done gradually. When this CBA is signed, sealed and delivered Bettman has gotten what's he's been after. Then there's no excuses for lockouts anymore.

    As for sound leadership? Well I'm no Bettman fan but there's a reason why he's been the commissioner for about 20 years while PA has gone through a lot of leaders and has had lot internal issues with their leadership.
    First, I am using Bettman/Ownership synonymously, just so we're all on the same page.

    I disagree on your first part (the cap-as-a-benefit argument, aside for the moment). Three lockouts, sitting idle while owners knowingly sign contracts that they have no intention of honoring nor can they afford, arbitrary salary rollbacks in an attempt to subsidize revenue of failing ownership, and his take-it or leave-it mentality all smack of devil-may-care tactics with no clear strategy. To me his twenty year tenure resembles more a "we'll see as we go" rather than obtaining a clear, predetermined endpoint.

    Twenty years and he's just now getting contract terms under control? Couldn't see the eventuality of it all after the 2004-05 lockout?

    Again, sounds more reactive than anything owed to foresight.

    Furthermore, even assuming in arguendo that the outcomes per se were indeed part of some grandly elaborate, twenty year scheme, that still does not validate his "end justifies the means" mentality.

    As far as your last point, being ownership's lap dog for twenty years is not sufficient when determining the soundness of his leadership. But proactive conflict resolution while avoiding games lost would go a long way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    I disagree on your first part (the cap-as-a-benefit argument, aside for the moment). Three lockouts, sitting idle while owners knowingly sign contracts that they have no intention of honoring nor can they afford, arbitrary salary rollbacks in an attempt to subsidize revenue of failing ownership, and his take-it or leave-it mentality all smack of devil-may-care tactics with no clear strategy. To me his twenty year tenure resembles more a "we'll see as we go" rather than obtaining a clear, predetermined endpoint.
    Knowingly sign contracts that they have no intention of honoring nor can they afford? I haven't seen any of that nor have I seen NHL use that as an argument in these negotiations. Besides all players contracts are subject to the current CBA. So all existing contracts will be regulated by the new CBA both NHL and NHLPA will agree on. Not like the players didn't see this coming either. It's no coincidence how the Suter, Parise, Weber etc. contracts were formulated (huge signing bonuses this summer). Yet I don't see anyone accusing those guys in negotiating in bad faith by demanding those type of structures to their contracts.

    Arbitrary salary rollbacks? I haven't see any of that either. NHL isn't demanding salary rollbacks and during the 04-05 lockout it was the NHLPA who came up with the 24% salary rollbacks (and obviously Bettman had no issue with that one).

    Take-it-or-leave-it mentality? Yes, there's been some of that during these negotiations but at the same time they've also clearly expressed desire to negotiate off their proposals (such as the make-whole provision). You can't really fault him with PA taking so long until they backed off from their demand on de-linkage (which was never going to happen and in this I 100% agree with NHL's stand).

    Where you see no strategy in NHL's actions, I'd say there's a clear strategy there. Also that's exactly what they've been accused by the PA and their supporters! That they play strickly by Proskauer's playbook! Throughout these negotiations NHL's end game has been much clearer to identify that PA's. I still don't know what PA's strategy is or what they consider a good deal for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    Twenty years and he's just now getting contract terms under control? Couldn't see the eventuality of it all after the 2004-05 lockout?

    Again, sounds more reactive than anything owed to foresight.

    Furthermore, even assuming in arguendo that the outcomes per se were indeed part of some grandly elaborate, twenty year scheme, that still does not validate his "end justifies the means" mentality.

    As far as your last point, being ownership's lap dog for twenty years is not sufficient when determining the soundness of his leadership. But proactive conflict resolution while avoiding games lost would go a long way.
    Yes, he should have seen and take out the possibility to those retirement contracts already in 2004-05 lockout. But hey, maybe he did see it but couldn't get it and didn't want to risk another season because of that issue back then? We don't know. The CBA negotiations takes both give and take and no matter what the PA says, NHL has given in these negotiations and in 2004-05 too. Bettman didn't dictate the last CBA by his own wishes but had to do some giving as well. These issues aren't something that Bettman can decide by himself and without any fight. That's why there's been 3 lockouts under his watch as he's been dealing with confrontational PA every time.

    With regards to get salary cap and 50/50, no matter how painful these lockouts are for fans, I definitely say that "end justifies the means". If the PA didn't give those without a fight, then I don't see anything else Bettman could have done to achieve those. Now with that said, last week should have ended in an agreement as PA for the first time accepted fully linked 50/50. I don't agree with NHL's stand on the 5 year contract limit as "a hill they'll die on".

    I agree with the last point but Bettman tried to be proactive in these CBA negotiations, didn't he? NHL was prepared to start these negotiations last fall but it didn't fit into PA's plans. Who knows where we'd be right now if they sit on the same table last December instead of waiting until June? Sure Bettman could still have been more proactive but it would require willingness from other side as well and I haven't seen it no matter how preparaed they've been to sit down and negotiate any time any where during this lockout. There was no real proactivity or sense of urgency from PA until the past few weeks. Can't blame Bettman and only Bettman for that.
    Last edited by Carcillo; December 12, 2012 at 2:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    Knowingly sign contracts that they have no intention of honoring nor can they afford?

    Arbitrary salary rollbacks? I haven't see any of that either. NHL isn't demanding salary rollbacks.
    We're probably talking about two different leagues. Sorry, I'm moving on.
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    You know, this doesn't look so bad if you compare it to this clock.

    F**k the Owners and F**k the PA... and if you are really drunk or just want to be thorough, F**k Bettman and F**k Fehr.
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    Its time for some mama said lock you out:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0GuvZ4LTnE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    We're probably talking about two different leagues. Sorry, I'm moving on.
    Well I'm talking about NHL.

    I would love to see how under NHL's proposal already signed player contracts wouldn't have been honored.

    And the 'Make Whole' provision is there so that there's no rollbacks, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    Well I'm talking about NHL.

    I would love to see how under NHL's proposal already signed player contracts wouldn't have been honored.

    And the 'Make Whole' provision is there so that there's no rollbacks, right?
    Going from 57% to 50% seems like a rollback to me, and an arbitrary one (ie not tied to revenue). Is there a make it whole provision? $300 mil was last offered by the owners, but that's not enough to truly make it whole (ie cover losses...including pension payments)

    ...and that $300 mil was not in their initial offer so yes, in my mind, they had no intention of honoring the contracts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    Going from 57% to 50% seems like a rollback to me, and an arbitrary one (ie not tied to revenue). Is there a make it whole provision? $300 mil was last offered by the owners, but that's not enough to truly make it whole (ie cover losses...including pension payments)

    ...and that $300 mil was not in their initial offer so yes, in my mind, they had no intention of honoring the contracts.
    Well here's NHL explanation on Make Whole from October when a full season was still possible (that offer has gotten better for the PA since then; and I know PA has some issues with that definition below). That would have made them whole if you believe that but obviously the concept doesn't currently cover losses anymore since there won't be a full season. That's not something you can blame NHL for though. PA should have negotiated from NHL's offer in October instead of waiting a month before they did that.

    No Rollback; Players' Share "Make Whole" Provision
    The NHL is not proposing that current SPCs be reduced, re-written or rolled back. Instead, the NHL's proposal retains all current Players' SPCs at their current face value for the duration of their terms, subject to the operation of the escrow mechanism in the same manner as it has worked under the expired CBA. (In other words, under the expired CBA, the compensation a Player received each year was either higher or lower than the face value of his contract depending upon Club-Player contracting levels and the level and growth rate of HRR.) Under the expired CBA, in two of the seven years Players were paid in excess of the face values of their SPCs and in five of those years they received less than their face values. That process would remain intact under the new CBA.


    Under our "make whole" proposal, which is premised upon a 5% anticipated growth of HRR both this year and in future years, every Player will be paid compensation based on the full value of the Players' Share under which his current SPC was signed.


    In order to effectively transition from a Players' Share of 57 percent to 50 percent, including importantly to protect Players' current SPCs against an absolute reduction in Players' Share dollars, the new Agreement contemplates, in its initial years, a "make whole" mechanism that will effectively pay each Player currently under contract the difference between 50% of Actual HRR in 2012/13 and 57% of HRR in 2011/12 -- which was $1.883 Billion.


    Again, premised upon an assumed 5% growth rate between 2011/12 and 2012/13, the "make whole" amount is calculated to be a maximum of $149 million for the 2012/13 season ($1.883 Billion minus $1.734 Billion (57% multiplied by $3.303 Billion minus 50% multiplied by $3.468 Billion). Similarly, utilizing that formula and our 5% growth projections, the "make whole" amount is calculated to be a maximum of $62 million for the 2013/14 season.


    To accomplish the "make whole," each Players' pro-rata "make whole" will be determined for the first two years of the Agreement and will be paid to each Player as a Deferred Compensation benefit over the life of the Player's existing SPC. For those Players whose contracts expire after the 2012/13 season, the benefit will be paid when final HRR is determined for this season (in October/November 2013). Player "make whole" payments will be accrued and paid for by the League, and will be chargeable against Players' Share amounts in future years as Preliminary Benefits.


    The "make whole" obligation will be operational only through the 2013/14 season because, beginning in Year 3, the projected growth in League-wide revenues should have resulted in an increase in absolute Players' Share dollars (in excess of the Players' Share of $1.883 Billion in 2011/12). This will effectively restore "full value" to all existing SPCs without any continuing need for a "make whole."


    We note in regard to this proposal, that while the NHLPA's August 14 proposal was premised upon a 7% annual growth rate in HRR, we instead used the more conservative growth rate of 5%, consistent with our prior proposals. If the NHLPA's estimate of revenue growth is more accurate, then the amount of money needed to effectuate a "make whole" would actually be less.
    Last edited by Carcillo; December 12, 2012 at 3:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    Well here's NHL explanation on Make Whole from October when a full season was still possible (that offer has gotten better for the PA since then; and I know PA has some issues with that definition below)
    Player "make whole" payments will be accrued and paid for by the League, and will be chargeable against Players' Share amounts in future years as Preliminary Benefits.
    In other words, deferred compensation will come out of the players' side of hockey-related revenues.

    Seems fair...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    In other words, deferred compensation will come out of the players' side of hockey-related revenues.

    Seems fair...
    Yes but that's has already been changed to come from the owners side. And you know that was an issue NHL said clearly that they're willing to discuss already when they made that offer in October. Didn't fit into PA's plans at time to negotiate off from that proposal.

    The PA also wanted guaranteed raises up until November. Not really fair either in a situation where a lot of teams are losing money and the league needs to cut down costs. The health of the whole league should come first and foremost IMO which is why I'm siding NHL in this fight.
    Last edited by Carcillo; December 12, 2012 at 3:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    Yes and that's has already been changed to come from the owners side.
    Not to my knowledge, and even if it has it still doesn't deter from my original premise of ownership is protecting itself against itself at the expense of the players due to poor leadership and lack of clearly preordained long term objectives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    Yes but that's has already been changed to come from the owners side. And you know that was an issue NHL said clearly that they're willing to discuss already when they made that offer in October. Didn't fit into PA's plans at time to negotiate off from that proposal.

    The PA also wanted guaranteed raises up until November. Not really fair either in a situation where a lot of teams are losing money and the league needs to cut down costs. The health of the whole league should come first and foremost IMO which is why I'm siding NHL in this fight.
    I agree that the health of the league should be #1. However, I can't side entirely with the NHL on this. It's the owners who have agreed to horrible offer sheets (Kevin Lowe style) and ugly front loaded deals (Parise and Suter, anyone?). If it weren't for these types of contracts, I really don't think contracts would have spiralled out of control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    Not to my knowledge, and even if it has it still doesn't deter from my original premise of ownership is protecting itself against itself at the expense of the players due to poor leadership and lack of clearly preordained long term objectives.
    They did that already on November 3rd according to Dreger.

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=408711
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    Quote Originally Posted by arctic_rogue View Post
    I agree that the health of the league should be #1. However, I can't side entirely with the NHL on this. It's the owners who have agreed to horrible offer sheets (Kevin Lowe style) and ugly front loaded deals (Parise and Suter, anyone?). If it weren't for these types of contracts, I really don't think contracts would have spiralled out of control.
    Yes, but how many teams have been giving those deals? Not that many? There always some owners with deep pockets willing to sign those contract, just like there's always players willing to sign those deals. It only takes one of those contracts and others have to follow if they want the players because you know that players and their agents will demand those contracts after they see some other players getting that kind of sweet deal. So you can blame owners for giving them, sure, but not like they have any other means to try to correct the situation but through CBA negotiations. They can't agree not to give those deals unilaterally as a group as it would be collusion.
    Last edited by Carcillo; December 12, 2012 at 3:25 PM.
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