The NHL players need a reality check...I think

[arctic_rogue]

I think any union (in any field) needs to be mandated to send their workers to go work at Tim Horton's for six months, with full Tim Horton's pay of course, before they can come back to the bargaining table.

Reality has a way of kicking the crap out of idealism.

A bit extreme wouldn't you say?

[grindin griers]

Was this on TV and is their a video of it somewhere? Would be interesting to hear his explanations of why it would do that.

[Mr. Guru]

Maybe somewhere on sportsnet

[Loch]

Bingo.

Today I'm watching Campoli and how he talks about protecting the "middle class" by not agreeing to the 5 year contract term. This is basically the whole PA stance, in a nutshell. If we could read their minds, it would be "we want to ensure the middle class continues to get overpaid."

Meanwhile, people like me say "no, no, no - let's get Crosby his 12 mil per year (because he's worth every penny as that's who the fans go to see) and let the middle class fight for whatever they can get." Instead they are willing to kill the season to protect the plugs. The only people who give two craps about the player "middle class" is the players that make up that group. The fans don't care about them, nor do the owners, nor do the sponsors, maybe their wives care about them. Ok, so that's good.

Seriously folks. The superstars are underpaid, the plugs are overpaid, 2/3 of the league is unprofitable... the model needs to be fixed.

So much of this is wrong I don't know where to start...

1) the league is not made up of Crosbys and plugs
2) there is something like 700 nhlers, the 'Crosbys' of the league number what? 70? If that. (more like 20)
3) The plugs are 'over-payed' because the NHL GMs know that their star forwards will play 20 to 25 minutes a game at most and they then start trying to buy 'the next best' and this process trickles down until you get a 4th liner at 2mil/yr because he's a better 4th liner than anyone else
4) You know who else cares about the plugs? Their superstar team-mates. If it weren't for Anaheim's Pahlsson line then Scott Neidermeyer wouldn't have won a cup in Cali. That's a fact.
5) The SALARY CAP is why star players are 'underpaid'. It put the brakes on how much can be spent on one player because the rest of the roster needs to be filled with guys who can actually skate.
7) The CAP FLOOR is why 3rd and 4th liners seem over paid. Do you really think the Columbus roster (with, um, Nash) is worth only 16mil less than the Penguin's roster (with Malkin, Crosby and Letang), really? The league does.

So yeah, the effed up salary structure has nothing to do with the NHLPA 'protecting the middle class' and everything to do with the Salary Cap / Cap Floor system that the League set up during the last lock-out.

[Luffy D Monkey]

Bingo.

Today I'm watching Campoli and how he talks about protecting the "middle class" by not agreeing to the 5 year contract term. This is basically the whole PA stance, in a nutshell. If we could read their minds, it would be "we want to ensure the middle class continues to get overpaid."

Meanwhile, people like me say "no, no, no - let's get Crosby his 12 mil per year (because he's worth every penny as that's who the fans go to see) and let the middle class fight for whatever they can get." Instead they are willing to kill the season to protect the plugs. The only people who give two craps about the player "middle class" is the players that make up that group. The fans don't care about them, nor do the owners, nor do the sponsors, maybe their wives care about them. Ok, so that's good.

Seriously folks. The superstars are underpaid, the plugs are overpaid, 2/3 of the league is unprofitable... the model needs to be fixed.

Everything you said was bullshit.

[letangerang58]

As for the cap and floor, your theories are partially true, at best. The bigger factor is that guys like Crosby are underpaid because THEY TRADE MONEY FOR TERM. Take away the security blanket of term (with a 5 year cap) and the superstars will demand way more money regardless of the salary cap. Once the superstars are paid their true worth, that will, in turn, push down salaries for the 3rd and 4th liners.

They can't there are contract limits that prevents teams from signing players for less than $x and more than $y. And without term to dilute those contracts and their cap hits when players want to front load them they won't sign players for as much anymore.

[letangerang58]

Oh, I don't question that at all. It seems to silly to loose so much to gain so little. But, at some point they need to draw the line in the sand. Ultimately it's the owners giving out the stupidly long contracts (Suter and Parise anyone). And now the owners want to hold the players feet to fire not even a few months later. I just makes no sense to me.

I'm not saying the players aren't to blame here, just that I think they are getting too much of it right now. Bad contracts are ultimately given out by the owners and that is the single most impactor on the financial state of the NHL. Instead of pointing the finger squarely at the players, I believe both the players and owners should shoulder it. It's been mentioned here before that both sides need to work together to grow revenue and give up fighting over minor things.

Burke decided not to offer Richards one of those contracts even though his team really needed Richards. Tell me, what effect did that have? Is Richards a Leaf now? Oh, that's right, he got a front loaded contract from the Rangers instead. This is why there needs to be a rule limiting contract length. If teams decide not to sign these contracts with the old CBA then that's fine, some other team will come along and sign Richards to that ridiculous contact. It means they won't be getting any quality players out of free agency. Instead of getting Richards they will have to settle on Connolly instead.

[Loch]

You missed the point completely. The model needs to change, simple as that, so I don't understand the argument - "the owners set it up!!! Now they want us to fix their mistakes!!!" Who else is going to help fix the system, other than the people responsible for the largest chunk of variable costs???

For the last time, the previous CBA is EXPIRED. It's done. It's gone. Using your logic, and the player's logic, they should have continued to fight for 70% of HRR last time. Why? For no other reason other than because that's what they were already getting.
Ridiculous.
Well, no, the owners said it wasn't a sustainable business model and they fought for change. Did they change the system enough? Apparently not. So they want to change it again. Why? Again, for the last time, because 2/3 of the teams are losing money. That's why.

As for the cap and floor, your theories are partially true, at best. The bigger factor is that guys like Crosby are underpaid because THEY TRADE MONEY FOR TERM. Take away the security blanket of term (with a 5 year cap) and the superstars will demand way more money regardless of the salary cap. Once the superstars are paid their true worth, that will, in turn, push down salaries for the 3rd and 4th liners.

Umm... you were saying the players were going to kill a season to 'protect the overpaid middle class' when the only players that people care about are the stars (Crosbys). Not a whole lot of talk about changing the system in that post.

Incidentally, since the length of contract is what was being debated and the whole 50-50 split is more or less universally accepted then this won't affect costs one bit. Yeah it might help with what we perceive as poor revenue distribution among the players but it has shit-all to do with what teams will or won't make money.

[arctic_rogue]

Burke decided not to offer Richards one of those contracts even though his team really needed Richards. Tell me, what effect did that have? Is Richards a Leaf now? Oh, that's right, he got a front loaded contract from the Rangers instead. This is why there needs to be a rule limiting contract length. If teams decide not to sign these contracts with the old CBA then that's fine, some other team will come along and sign Richards to that ridiculous contact. It means they won't be getting any quality players out of free agency. Instead of getting Richards they will have to settle on Connolly instead.

Exactly! The owners cannot help themselves. Why offer those crazy high contracts if it's not sustainable? And we blame the players? If I can find an employer that'll pay me 40% more for same work, why would I ever accept less?

[Mr. Guru]

Exactly! The owners cannot help themselves. Why offer those crazy high contracts if it's not sustainable? And we blame the players? If I can find an employer that'll pay me 40% more for same work, why would I ever accept less?

Absolutely! And now you can see this is a problem. Hence, the 5 year term limit he owners want.

[letangerang58]

Exactly! The owners cannot help themselves. Why offer those crazy high contracts if it's not sustainable? And we blame the players? If I can find an employer that'll pay me 40% more for same work, why would I ever accept less?

The teams offering the contracts aren't the ones who need the help. When was the last time you saw a "non-traditional hockey market" team go for a big free agent? How many of them have had success?

[dongjohnson]

The mid-level guys are who SHOULD be fought for. Without them, there'd be no other lines to eat up minutes and do the dirty work for Crosby, Ovechkin etc. None of the others are threatening to cap salary at $7m a year, the top end guys will always get paid but if mid-level guys don't, it will damage the model for the players long term.

[DuklaNation]

I've always said stop overpaying the mediocre players. Sign some AHL players at a cheaper rate for similar production. Watching the Rochester/Toronto game tonight on SN, the quality of the game isnt that much different than the NHL. If anything some of the games seem more exciting from a fan's perspective (maybe because the offense is slightly better?).

[Mr. Guru]

I totally agree with that.

Sign AHL/European guys at a much cheaper rate and the quality of play will make it justifiable.

Im also a big fan of AHL/Euro guys getting their chance in the NHL and making the best of it.

[Mr. Guru]

Fine, have it your way. I'd rather have the NHL get tough and knock the market value of guys like Nik Kulemin back under 2 mil per season, if possible. For the health of so many of the teams. There are so many guys like Kulemin who have never won a thing in the NHL, but you guys say they are worth fighting for. I disagree. So be it.

p.s. For the record, I like Kulemin. I just think he's overpaid. And I think most (not all) players like him are similarly overpaid. In 20 years, we won't even remember those guys played in the league. And yet they have become multi millionaires, set for life, off the wages of people like you and me. How special are they really, to deserve that...

I don't think you are being rationale here. I disagree with you and I had a pretty long paragraphed typed out.....re-read it; didn't make much sense. It's late, but I'll get back to this tomorrow. Good discussion though.