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Thread: The NHL players need a reality check...I think

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loch View Post
    Knock it off. That isn't what I said at all.

    Oh and if you think the cost of tickets would go down after a massive drop in player salaries I want what you are smoking.
    How is that not what you said?
    Instead of addressing the problem of rapidly rising player salaries (a concept I support, and why I'm pro-owner), you completely ignored it, and instead brought up the necessity of "more meaningful revenue sharing."

    And I never said ticket prices would go down. Just like I never said the players were making out like bandits. But a surefire way to ensure ticket prices continue to rise rapidly would be to allow salaries to keep spiralling out of control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loch View Post
    You know, with this cross-border metric/imperial conversion nonsense things can get a bit confusing. Where does 'shit ton' rank compared to 'ton' (907kg) or 'tonne' (1000kg)... and is there a 'shit tonne' as well?
    It's between a metric ton and two-tons-oh-fun.

    lol...I have to admit, I adopted that expression from my wife. And I also asked her if it was similar to a metric ton. Too funny...
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  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    Most of those (parking, merchandise, vendors etc.) are counted against HRR so it isn't something that goes directly into owners' pockets as such.
    They're logged in different books and are not considered HRR, nor are luxury suites. but they do indeed go into the owners pocket.

    Concerts and all events within the arenas too.
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  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    How is that not what you said?
    Instead of addressing the problem of rapidly rising player salaries (a concept I support, and why I'm pro-owner), you completely ignored it, and instead brought up the necessity of "more meaningful revenue sharing."
    The players' salaries have grown as a result of league revenue growing.
    Regardless of the size of their slice of the pie this growth rate would be unchanged, ergo it is not the problem. Complain about the size of their share, sure, but the growth rate is not the issue here. I believe I did already mention that.

    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    The irony of that approach is particularly oozing, since you wrote earlier that the players get what the "free market" says they should get.

    So, it's a free market up until it isn't a free market anymore? Ok then.
    Fairly certain I've not been throwing around 'free market' as the cap and cap floor impose maximums and minimums, perhaps you have me confused with someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    And I never said ticket prices would go down. Talk about putting words in my mouth. Just like I never said the players were making out like bandits. But a surefire way to ensure ticket prices continue to rise rapidly would be to allow salaries to keep spiralling out of control.
    You said the teams were passing on escalating costs to you which seemed to suggest you felt they would pass savings on to you. I did say 'if you think' so that isn't what I'd call 'putting words in your mouth', merely asserting that if you held that belief that you'd be nuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    But a surefire way to ensure ticket prices continue to rise rapidly would be to allow salaries to keep spiralling out of control.
    See, here is the problem with your argument. You have the causal relationship backwards. Player salaries (collectively) are determined by league revenue. League revenue is largely (60% or so) determined by ticket revenue. So as ticket prices increase player salaries MUST increase (thank you cap floor!).

    You think:
    Players Salaries increasing causes ticket prices to increase.
    Reality says:
    Ticket revenues increasing causes player salaries to increase.

    Now the profitability issues for a large chunk of the teams results from the revenue increase NOT being very evenly distributed whereas the cost increase IS evenly distributed.
    Columbus revenue went up 12% from 2005 to 2009, the player costs went up 15% in the same span.
    Toronto revenue went up 35% from 2005 to 2010, the player costs went up 16%.
    (forbes numbers fyi)

    Yes the system is failing but it is not in any way 'caused' by player salary growth as that growth is a dependent variable in the NHL's economic system.
    /S

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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loch View Post

    You think:
    Players Salaries increasing causes ticket prices to increase.
    Reality says:
    Ticket revenues increasing causes player salaries to increase.
    Interesting way of looking at it. (sincerely)
    I don't think I agree, but it's certainly worth considering.

    And, yes, my apologies - I realized you hadn't made the free market post and revised my post accordingly. But you had already started your reply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    Instead of addressing the problem of rapidly rising player salaries (a concept I support, and why I'm pro-owner).
    Do you see the inherent irony in that statement?
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  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    They're logged in different books and are not considered HRR, nor are luxury suites. but they do indeed go into the owners pocket.

    Concerts and all events within the arenas too.
    I haven't studied the definition of HRR but I'm pretty sure things like merchadise and parking (during NHL games) are counted on HRR and don't go into different books. Owners may get to do some reductions from them but that's not 100% money that goes into owner's pockets but is divided amongst the owners and players.

    Money from concerts and all non-hockey events in the arenas should go into the owners pockets and only in their pockets. I don't see why players would deserve to get a piece of that pie. Owners should have the right to make money through other means as well. Not like Crosby etc. have to give any of their endorsement money to owners either but they're free to try and get as much money as they can get. So I don't see the purpose of this point. Obviously owners get money through other means of business but that's their right. The hockey team itself should be profitable regardless of how much money the owners get from elsewhere.
    Last edited by Carcillo; December 12, 2012 at 2:41 PM.
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  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    I haven't studied the definition of HRR but I'm pretty sure things like merchadise and parking (during NHL games) are counted on HRR and don't go into different books.
    Oh...did not know that. I assumed (shame on me) HRR was based on general seating tix sales, and NHL merchandise (jerseys...anything sporting a copyrighted logo)
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  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    Oh...did not know that. I assumed (shame on me) HRR was based on general seating tix sales, and NHL merchandise (jerseys...anything sporting a copyrighted logo)
    There's a lot of things that go into that HRR pool. Here's one article trying to explain the issue of HRR:

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...d-revenue.html

    You mentioned luxury boxes earlier. Well it's not something that goes into owners' pockets as such according to that article:

    As mentioned, teams are supremely annoyed because they can't deduct any costs from luxury box revenues. But the NHLPA isn't thrilled either because it doesn't feel players get enough of the earnings.
    Almost all of the NHL's teams own their arena or are paid to manage it (eg. Nashville Predators). "One-team" arenas (ie. no NBA tenant) must allocate 65 per cent of luxury suite revenue towards HRR. "Two-team" arenas (eg. Air Canada Centre) are at 32.5 per cent. So even though teams like Montreal -- and we're using the Canadiens for a specific reason -- can't deduct costs, 35 per cent of their suite cash can't be touched.
    So the owners get directly some of that revenue to their pockets but they also can't reduct any of the costs so I doubt it's really a that big of a cash cow for all NHL teams.
    Last edited by Carcillo; December 12, 2012 at 2:57 PM.
    UHL Pittsburgh Penguins

    24 Team Fantrax Salary Cap H2H Dynasty League
    G, A, +/-, PIM, PPP, SHP, GWG, SOG
    , Hits, Blks, FOW
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    27 Man Minor Team

    C-
    Tavares, Stepan, Granlund, Bjugstad, Couturier
    LW- Ryan, Perron, Ennis, Killorn, Spaling
    RW-
    Wheeler, Simmonds, Coyle, Wingels, Shaw
    D-
    JJ, Schultz, Cowen, Muzzin, Bortuzzo, Stanton
    G- Lehtonen, Rämö

    F: Lehterä, Wennberg,
    McNeill, de la Rose, Fast, Leivo, Arnold, Archibald, Lindström
    D: Gelinas, Beaulieu, Koekkoek, McCabe, Johns, Gryba
    G: Berra, Talbot, Brossoit, Ullmark, Lieuwen, Rynnäs

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  10. #115
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    For what was (or wasn't) counted as HRR in the last CBA see this site: http://www.nhlfa.com/CBA/2005-CBA.pdf
    Start at page 180 (in the PDF numbering, the actual number on the page is 161)
    /S

    ~ I'm not a sociopath, it's just that my magnetic personality keeps throwing off my moral compass.~

    WHL - World Hockey League (24-Team Daily H2H)
    Weighted Scoring: G(1),A(1),PPP(0.5),+/-(0.5), SOG/PIM/HIT/BLK(all 0.05), FOW-C(0.01)

    Victoria DH
    C(3): Toews, Johnson, Zibanejad
    LW(3): Henrique, Burakovsky, N. Paul
    RW(3): Toffoli, Callahan, Palmieri
    F(3): Bouma, B. Boyle, Roussell
    D(6): Doughty, Larsson, Bieksa, Vlasic, Franson, Stoner
    G(1): Talbot, Luongo
    Bench: Kruger(C), Copp(C), Cracknell (RW), Korpikoski(LW), Nesterov (D), Schelmko (D)

    Prospects(10): Bjorkstrand, De La Rose, N. Rod, Dvorak
    Hyman, Lehkonen, Hagg, Lindell, Oesterle, Sorokin

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    There's a lot of things that go into that HRR pool. Here's one article trying to explain the issue of HRR:

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...d-revenue.html

    You mentioned luxury boxes earlier. Well it's not something that goes into owners' pockets as such according to that article:



    So the owners get directly some of that revenue to their pockets but they also can't reduct any of the costs so I doubt it's really a that big of a cash cow for all NHL teams.
    Yes...you're correct in that it's a percentage, absolutely. An oversight on my part (I knew that too). Same with food vendors (unless you own one like Jacobs) I just meant that the owners do recoup revenue from these sources...albeit not 100%.

    I didn't mean to imply that....sorry.
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