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Thread: Could I land a big four (Ovi)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkb7 View Post
    Sedin is indeed the best name I've got so that's why I've got to sparkle on the side by replacing his junk with pure immediate improvement. Once again, his team shows he should rebuild and his actions inform me otherwise (keeping and drafting rather older guys - Ribs, Cole, Backstrom, Vokoun, Boyle, Visnovsky).

    It shows me his strategy is not on point and I shall benefit from that.
    See now, you're falling into a few traps here.
    1) Justifying your offer:
    If you have to justify the validity of your offer, it probably won't be accepted. Hell, you have 5-6 guys telling you it isn't a good enough deal and yet you're still trying to convince us how it makes sense. This isn't a judgement on you, but rather a judgement on whether or not we think you're offering enough.

    2) Assuming what the other GM needs/should do:
    Nobody wants to be told how they should run their team. In my experience, there's no better way to alienate a rival GM then telling them/trying to convince them that they need to rebuild. Expecially if, as you mention, his actions are showing you he has no interest in rebuilding. You need to meet the other GM on their level, not convince them of yours.

    Keep in mind I offered Getzlaf/Doughty/Schneider/B. Smith which would help him greatly on D and in goal (he had Luongo), while hurting him a notch or two on forward, and the owner balked, because he knew he wanted another stud in return.

    Honestly, I don't see you have the star power to acquire Ovechkin unless you coupled Sedin with Rinne, and thats too much to give up. Since you're already offering two of your best players in the deal, try telling him to pick any 5 skaters from your roster and chose 3 of them to offer straight up for Ovechkin. You'll be giving up alot of production value, but Ovechkin's trade value means that one year from now if he doesn't work out you could still probably move him for a package of equal or better value than the one you gave up for him.
    Last edited by the_walrus; December 7, 2012 at 12:24 PM.
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    C: Crosby, Getzlaf, Ribeiro, Hodgson
    LW: Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Eriksson, Van Riemsdyk, Whitney
    RW: Gaborik, Stewart, Read, Selanne, Alfredsson
    D: Pietrangelo, Yandle, Edler, Wisniewski, E. Johnson, Whitney, Bieksa, Gardiner
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    Quote Originally Posted by STONE. View Post
    Are people forgetting the picks?
    If there's no season, this is a lottery pick! McKinnon or Jones is also in play here.
    Unless this deal makes him immediately better, he's giving up a lottery pick the following year as well.

    The deal without the picks is close. With the picks, I just don't see it.

    Well, since you quoted my post... I guess I should address this.


    1) The lottery pick COULD be the #1 overall pick, since it came from the last place team. But a lot of leagues may follow the NHL's protocol and have their own lottery for all the picks. Even if it is Mackinnon... how long until the kid is fantasy relevant? One-year, two-years, three-years? In shallow-keeper pools - usually a team should be undergoing a massive rebuild to wait on a prospect.

    2) His team is close to competing NOW, per OP.
    I don't think it makes sense to get younger. If he's close to competing, I say go for it NOW. Why get younger when you have the 2nd best team in the league? Daniel Sedin is a monster in this format. There's no PIM, so aside from the discrepancy between AO and Sedin in hits, the other categories are very close (P, G, +/-, PPG, PPP, SHP, GWG, Shots, Hits). Iginla is also very good in this format. Lots of scoring categories.


    If the OP wants to go into full re-build, yes... go Ovechkin + prospects.
    But we've seen Ovechkin slowing down... by the time Mackinnon is fantasy-relevant (2015?) will Ovechkin have bounced back... or will he be even worse?
    Point is - I don't think Ovechkin can be considered a player to be included onto a "rebuilding" team.

    If the OP wants to compete, I say go with the D.Sedin side.
    My response was from the vantage point of competing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pengwin7 View Post
    If the OP wants to compete, I say go with the D.Sedin side.
    My response was from the vantage point of competing.
    I get your point -- just mixed communication. You're encouraging him to stick with what he has -- which I can see. That's just not what he posed in the thread title: "Could I land a big four?" Had he asked, "Should I land a big four?" You'd be bang on.

    I see your point now -- we were just looking from opposite sides. The thread poster might be better off with Sedin. That I'll concede. I also think the other owner would be better off with what he has -- and therefore won't/shouldn't take the deal. That's what I was saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_walrus View Post

    1) Justifying your offer:
    If you have to justify the validity of your offer, it probably won't be accepted. Hell, you have 5-6 guys telling you it isn't a good enough deal and yet you're still trying to convince us how it makes sense. This isn't a judgement on you, but rather a judgement on whether or not we think you're offering enough. Keep in mind I offered Getzlaf/Doughty/Schneider/B. Smith which would help him greatly on D and in goal, while hurting him a notch or two on forward and the owner balked, because he knew he wanted another stud in return.

    2) Assuming what the other GM needs/should do:
    Nobody wants to be told how they should run their team. In my experience, there's no better way to alienate a rival GM then telling them/trying to convince them that they need to rebuild. Expecially if, as you mention, his actions are showing you he has no interest in rebuilding. You need to meet the other GM on their level, not convince them of yours.

    Honestly, I don't see you have the star power to acquire Ovechkin unless you coupled Sedin with Rinne, and thats too much to give up. Since you're already offering two of your best players in the deal, try telling him to pick any 5 skaters from your roster and chose 3 of them to offer straight up for Ovechkin. You'll be giving up alot of production value, but Ovechkin's trade value means that one year from now if he doesn't work out you could still probably move him for a package of equal or better value than the one you gave up for him.
    I strongly disagree on a few things:
    1) Justifying an offer doesn't mean the offer is a bad one in the first place. If you place higher value of a player only because of his name, my JOB, in order to the trade done, is to extract the plus-value on name and generate the real value. If the other GM accepts right off the bat, that means my offer would have been too low. It's the basics of negotiations - each party trying to close the gap. If the majority of you would say it's not even close, then yes, I shall recraft the trade. It seems like this trade has place to interpretation, though.

    2) When you look at the facts, his team is not in good posture. Therefore, I put myself in the other GM's shoes and ask myself:"is it worth giving up Ovechkin, lose couple of 1st rounders but improving two other keepers (while also receiving D. Sedin) in exchange of not having to go under complete rebuild and have my chances of competing sooner than 3 years from now and perhaps making playoffs as soon as this year?"

    3) You're making it seem like I'm pointing a gun to his head to accept the deal. I have yet to discuss this deal with him, even though I sent the offer. My perception of his team is that he should rebuild but opted to have a compete-now strategy. I've never insinuated that he should run his team whatever way. I'm simply pondering on what type of offer to send considering what his plans seems to be, for him.

    Statistically speaking, I doubt Ovechkin is worth my top three (pick three out of five). You wanna place value on a name, like most people would do? Fine, but I'm crunching numbers and it's not worth it.
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    C: Johansen, Marleau, Sharp
    W: Ovechkin, Wheeler, Steen, Backes
    D: Byfuglien, Green, Weber, Carlson
    G: Rask, Berra, Howard
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkb7 View Post

    2) When you look at the facts, his team is not in good posture. Therefore, I put myself in the other GM's shoes and ask myself:"is it worth giving up Ovechkin, lose couple of 1st rounders but improving two other keepers (while also receiving D. Sedin) in exchange of not having to go under complete rebuild and have my chances of competing sooner than 3 years from now and perhaps making playoffs as soon as this year?"
    The problem is, most people here are telling you it's not worth it for him to do so. Yet you're still trying to convince us it is.
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    i really dont see an ovi owner making this deal.
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    C= crosby,m.koivu,malkin,hopkins,bozak
    LW= ovechkin,dubinsky,gaborik,benn
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    Thank you for your inputs.
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    9 Skater stats: P, G, +/-, PPG, PPP, SHP, GWG, Shots, Hits -- 4 Goalie stats: W, SO, Save%, GAA%
    C: Johansen, Marleau, Sharp
    W: Ovechkin, Wheeler, Steen, Backes
    D: Byfuglien, Green, Weber, Carlson
    G: Rask, Berra, Howard
    Bench: Hartnell, Zuccarello, J.Jackson, Cammalleri, Brown, Kadri, Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkb7 View Post
    I strongly disagree on a few things:
    1) Justifying an offer doesn't mean the offer is a bad one in the first place. If you place higher value of a player only because of his name, my JOB, in order to the trade done, is to extract the plus-value on name and generate the real value. If the other GM accepts right off the bat, that means my offer would have been too low. It's the basics of negotiations - each party trying to close the gap. If the majority of you would say it's not even close, then yes, I shall recraft the trade. It seems like this trade has place to interpretation, though.

    2) When you look at the facts, his team is not in good posture. Therefore, I put myself in the other GM's shoes and ask myself:"is it worth giving up Ovechkin, lose couple of 1st rounders but improving two other keepers (while also receiving D. Sedin) in exchange of not having to go under complete rebuild and have my chances of competing sooner than 3 years from now and perhaps making playoffs as soon as this year?"

    3) You're making it seem like I'm pointing a gun to his head to accept the deal. I have yet to discuss this deal with him, even though I sent the offer. My perception of his team is that he should rebuild but opted to have a compete-now strategy. I've never insinuated that he should run his team whatever way. I'm simply pondering on what type of offer to send considering what his plans seems to be, for him.

    Statistically speaking, I doubt Ovechkin is worth my top three (pick three out of five). You wanna place value on a name, like most people would do? Fine, but I'm crunching numbers and it's not worth it.
    [Facepalm]
    Was just trying give you some advice, since I've dealt extensively with someone in my league who thinks the way you do. All I can tell you is that it's excruciating when they want somebody and constantly try to push they offer through, offering justification after justification. Careful, youre treading dangerously close to being one of those guys who constantly post about offering spare parts for elite players because they 'might outproduce them'

    The only questions you ever need to consider in a trade are;
    -what does he want
    -is it worth it

    My guess is that he wants alot, and that it probably won't be worth it. So yes, you are providing value, but it probably won't get the job done. But thats the price you pay going after a top 4 player.

    I look forward to hearing how this turns out.
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    C: Crosby, Getzlaf, Ribeiro, Hodgson
    LW: Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Eriksson, Van Riemsdyk, Whitney
    RW: Gaborik, Stewart, Read, Selanne, Alfredsson
    D: Pietrangelo, Yandle, Edler, Wisniewski, E. Johnson, Whitney, Bieksa, Gardiner
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    So to sum it up,
    Ovechkin can be regarded as an untouchable (unless my willingness to give up too many assets for acquiring the name)
    My trade doesn't provide enough value for him.
    I have wrongfully assumed his needs.

    I was just looking at
    1) why he would accept or decline the trade
    2) what it would take to conclude a trade

    In order to conclude it, because it's Ovechkin, I would need to include my shirt and socks, therefore not worth it.
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    C: Johansen, Marleau, Sharp
    W: Ovechkin, Wheeler, Steen, Backes
    D: Byfuglien, Green, Weber, Carlson
    G: Rask, Berra, Howard
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    And that's another thing, I cannot trade for ish because using the HPG tool, I tend to draft the under-the-radar players with huge all around numbers instead of hot shots like 75% of my league would be doing.

    That's why it seems like I have to justify a trade.
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    9 Skater stats: P, G, +/-, PPG, PPP, SHP, GWG, Shots, Hits -- 4 Goalie stats: W, SO, Save%, GAA%
    C: Johansen, Marleau, Sharp
    W: Ovechkin, Wheeler, Steen, Backes
    D: Byfuglien, Green, Weber, Carlson
    G: Rask, Berra, Howard
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfunkb7 View Post
    Shoeless:
    C: RIBS, Anisimov, Nielsen, HENRIQUE,
    W: OVIE, HEATLEY, COLE, POMINVILLE, Hornqvist, Seto, Foligno, Gionta
    D: BURNS, LARSSON, Visnovsky, Bergeron,
    G: HALAK, BACKSTROM, Vokoun
    *Note: Capitals = Keepers (!) ... have you raised any eyebrows yet?

    Horrorfan: I understand your point and I've seen this point come around often in the forums. However, this manager is semi-dedicated to his team so I'm looking to provide him with tools that will allow him to improve his team immediately and help him get a top 8 (playoff spot). So yeah, Ovie is quite good, but his 3 others are garbage. It really depends where he's mind's at because frankly, are you completely on rebuild mode when you keep cole or even ribs for that matter?
    Yeah that's exactly it - you don't know where his mind is at and how he values his squad/players. As you've made the offer, you'll hopefully get feedback that will answer those questions. Be sure to update this thread once you get a response.
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    You sound so much like the GM in my league I was referring to, its scary (well, more funny than scary).

    Don't ask for advice if you aren't happy when people disagree with you.

    The point is that you're missing and what everybody is trying to explain to you is that no matter how good an offer you make, no matter how lop-sided it is in their favor, they might still be inclined to decline it.

    If you do well with sleepers and under-the-radar players, than more power to you. But those aren't usually the guys that most GMs want. Yes, Jason Pominville outscored Eriksson, E. Stall, Parise, D. Sedin, Iginla, P. Kane, AND Ovechkin last year; that doesn't mean you could ever get any of those players for him. He's got production value, but no name value. And unfortunately when trading, name value is worth more than production value.

    Nobody's trying to knock on you though. It's fustrating trading for elite talent because of the unreasonable price tag. But such is the market. Hopefully for your sake, the GM in your league with Ovie is easier to deal with than we are.
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    Full Keeper w/ Salary Cap [4C/4LW/4RW/6D/2G/5B, 82 gp per roster spot]

    C: Crosby, Getzlaf, Ribeiro, Hodgson
    LW: Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Eriksson, Van Riemsdyk, Whitney
    RW: Gaborik, Stewart, Read, Selanne, Alfredsson
    D: Pietrangelo, Yandle, Edler, Wisniewski, E. Johnson, Whitney, Bieksa, Gardiner
    G: Lundqvist, Bryzgalov, Schneider

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