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Thread: Positive Lockout News?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rangersfury View Post


    Is the difference between 5% annual contract variance and 25% high year/low year variance REALLY that different that we need to blow things up? 5 year contracts vs 8? 10 year CBA vs 8? Are we all really so entrenched that neither side will allow the other's offer to be the one that "does it"?

    I can't make sense of this shit anymore, what the hell is either side fighting for anymore?
    Yeah, on the surface it seems pretty stupid to be hung up on a couple of years difference in contract and CBA lengths but it boils down to the fact that Fehr seems convinced he can get a better deal if he waits a little longer. But I'm not even sure why shorter CBA is supposed to be better. NHLPA wants longer contracts yet shorter CBA. Why? Sounds like the difference is very small and easy to reconcile to an outsider but there is so much emotional buildup in these negotiations, what seems perfectly logical to us is summarily dismissed by the NHL and NHLPA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    They're all going about this the wrong way. Quibbling over a percent is silly and misses the bigger picture Both sides should be discussing ways to generate MORE revenue. 50% of ten billion would be far more appealing to all than 57% five billion. Their shortsighted focus on their respective self interests is having the opposite effect, ironically.

    Pride goeth before the fall.
    Nice Post Bomm. Apparently I have to spread the rep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Guru View Post
    Nice Post Bomm. Apparently I have to spread the rep.
    Thanks, Guru. I just think that's where Bettman fails as a leader. Cold hearted, soulless, kitten killing personality aside, he needs to drop the Us vs. Them mentality, and focus more on convincing the players why it's in their and the league's best interest to focus on the common good derived by boosting revenues. Whether motivated by Machiavellian or altruistic principles, I don't care.

    But this chest puffing hubris (from both sides) accomplishes nothing, with regard to promoting your product. But the fact that both sides appear more than willing to cut the nose to spite the face exemplifies their bloated arrogance in thinking the league is too big to fail.

    As owners they should realize it is in their best long term interest to be more inclusive. Maybe advocate player/owner committee think tanks, whose purpose is to generate out-of-the-box, revenue generating ideas with focus on long term goals. Whatever...

    The NHL is players AND owners. The sooner both sides realize that their goals are actually mutual rather than adverse, the more established and respected their product will become.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bomm Bastic View Post
    But this chest puffing hubris (from both sides) accomplishes nothing....
    I just have to say that you intrigue me Bomm. Half your posts are flippant, funny and I love them for that. Then you offer some sweet insights dropping "hubris" like it's no big thang.

    I agree with this post for sure. I wish mediation would help with this, but I worry the two sides are too emotionally invested for anything to happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    It is absolutely incredible that the deal fell apart on these two things:

    1) 5 year Player contract length - Daly said the league will "die on the hill" over this issue and the players refuse to surrender (even though 80 to 90% of the players currently have contracts less than 5 years anyway - like WTF are they doing?!)

    2) 10 year CBA - if the players had locked in to a longer CBA last time, they'd be playing right now, and getting 70% of HRR instead of currently trying to salvage 50.

    It is the most amazing gong show I've ever witnessed.
    I agree with you on your second point completely.

    As far as your first point, I am not sure how many actually watched Bettmans live press conference last night. He made an interesting point. Back in 2004 when we all went through this last time, there was 1 contract over 5 years in length, at the time of the lockout in 2012, there was 90 contracts over 5 years in lenth. The owners want to eliminate those long term contracts. Now my big beef with this point comes back to the owners/GMs. If you dont like those types of contracts then dont give them out in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by STONE. View Post
    I just have to say that you intrigue me Bomm. Half your posts are flippant, funny and I love them for that. Then you offer some sweet insights dropping "hubris" like it's no big thang.

    I agree with this post for sure. I wish mediation would help with this, but I worry the two sides are too emotionally invested for anything to happen.
    lol....fart jokes and Aristotle, that's me.

    Binding arbitration, that's my solution. But I believe the egos involved would never go for that. Not when the owners are coming from the perspective of "nothing to lose, everything to gain".
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    Agree to 10yr deal as well as 5yr contract length limits.....and meet somewhere in between with the 5-25% variance from year to year contracts. I'm sure the NHL would have been cool with that.
    For the first time I'm actually a little upset with the players' side. It is that close to a deal and you continue to play Fehr's game of "wait out for more". Come on guys.....get this shit done already! It's difficult from a fan's perspective to support the cause when its appears the union is starting to play the same childish games the owners once played. I thought at one point I couldn't be more sickened by this process.....I guess I was wrong. If they were wondering if they lost certain fans or not.....I think after last night....it is all but guaranteed. Poor judgement call by both sides.....but more so this time by the players. Take a vote, get it done, and save what fans that are left....even they won't stay around if this continues the way it's going.
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    This might be crazy but I still have to add........maybe this was done to discredit Bettman. Think about it. If this would have worked, it was Bettman's idea, he would have looked like a genious.....a little troll genious.....but one none the less. It just makes sure Bettman gets no credit for the "end" product. I kinda believe that the original plan from the NHLPA from day one, was to get rid of Bettman when all was said and done....conspiracy theory if you will. It just sucks that this attempt might be not only the end of Bettman, but the next two seasons as well. Just a thought between my pissed of mood swings from last night's chaios!
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemissgilmour View Post
    Valid point, except most owners would not want to handcuff their gms (by refusing a potential long-term contract), who are just trying to stay competitive with other teams. Taking out the option for all teams, as part of a new CBA, levels the playing field.

    Owners want cost certainty as much as possible, and to limit their longer term obligations. Keeps the books cleaner for a potential sale down the road I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    As far as your first point, I am not sure how many actually watched Bettmans live press conference last night. He made an interesting point. Back in 2004 when we all went through this last time, there was 1 contract over 5 years in length, at the time of the lockout in 2012, there was 90 contracts over 5 years in lenth. The owners want to eliminate those long term contracts. Now my big beef with this point comes back to the owners/GMs. If you dont like those types of contracts then dont give them out in the first place.
    See, and there is the inherent conflict. When negotiating individual contracts players have the advantage over the owner. The owner wants player-X and will do whatever it takes to sign him in order to keep other GMs from signing him. In other words, the owner/GM...at that point in time - is acting on the best interests of his team, not the league.

    Now fast forward to the CBA talks, when all these owners after signing these bloated contracts, now have to convince players that for the league's sake they (the players) need to sacrifice.

    The law of unintended consequences is a bitch.
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    Right you are Bomm. Of course there are other ways to get around North American labour laws, and CBA's.

    For instance, unless it's agreed to in the CBA - the league cannot tell individual teams or GM's to just "not sign contracts longer than 5yrs". That's going to give the NHLPA grounds for a collusion lawsuit.

    However the League Office could stipulate that each team is allowed 1 contract over that 5yr term...and then a fine would apply to that team for each contract thereafter....say $250k US.

    But that makes a mess of negotiating the shared revenues, and its just way better to go after the players and break them down - rather than sow dissension among your ownership group.

    .
    Last edited by Shenanigans; December 7, 2012 at 11:38 AM. Reason: I cannot type today. Blame Bettman ! =D

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    Loop holes. The GM's, agents, and players found them in the previous CBA. The owners are currently trying to close those loop holes. The contract length just happens to be one of those loop holes the owners want closed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    Loop holes. The GM's, agents, and players found them in the previous CBA. The owners are currently trying to close those loop holes. The contract length just happens to be one of those loop holes the owners want closed.
    There will be more loopholes. Agents find them because they are paid to get the best deal possible for their players. I guarantee the players would not opt out of a 10 year CBA.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeman33 View Post
    Loop holes. The GM's, agents, and players found them in the previous CBA. The owners are currently trying to close those loop holes. The contract length just happens to be one of those loop holes the owners want closed.
    Exactly, some enterprising agent and GM will realize that signing bonuses or some other non-salary pay circumvent the cap and voila, we'll have the same problem.

    The league needs to let GMs/franchises make mistakes otherwise this becomes a paint by numbers league like the NBA. Good god that abomination is boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake44 View Post
    Agree to 10yr deal as well as 5yr contract length limits.....and meet somewhere in between with the 5-25% variance from year to year contracts. I'm sure the NHL would have been cool with that.
    For the first time I'm actually a little upset with the players' side. It is that close to a deal and you continue to play Fehr's game of "wait out for more". Come on guys.....get this shit done already! It's difficult from a fan's perspective to support the cause when its appears the union is starting to play the same childish games the owners once played. I thought at one point I couldn't be more sickened by this process.....I guess I was wrong. If they were wondering if they lost certain fans or not.....I think after last night....it is all but guaranteed. Poor judgement call by both sides.....but more so this time by the players. Take a vote, get it done, and save what fans that are left....even they won't stay around if this continues the way it's going.
    Absolutely agree with everything you said Jake. I was with the players all the way this time around but if the 5 year contract limit is a key in an agreement for them, then they're losing me. Sure its nice to get a 15 year guaranteed contract (right Rick), then you should have to guarantee that you will produce for those years. I think 5 years is right and generous and anything more is greedy and unfair. Its is all about greed and egos here, and thats a very bad combination which is why i've stayed off this rollercoaster.

    I can't believe that the NBA had settled by this time last year after only a month from the start of the season, when the NHL, after missing a WHOLE season during the last CBA, can't figure it out. It is laughable isn't it?

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    I don't even understand why the players need long contracts. I understand that it's job security, but the long contracts are driving down prices. Force shorter contracts and they'll get closer to fair market value over the whole term. Hell, they could still get seven goddamn years with their own team. Ridiculous.
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