Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 49

Thread: Players may be in dark over 50/50 split

  1. #16
    Loch's Avatar
    Loch is offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,206
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Master

    Default

    So there is one thread about the players being in the dark about what their representative is doing and there is another thread about the owners potentially getting fed up with what their representative is doing.

    It's like a monkey shit fight at the zoo, only without the organization, productivity and entertainment value.
    /S

    ~ I'm not a sociopath, it's just that my magnetic personality keeps throwing off my moral compass.~

    Victoria DH
    C(3): Athanasiou, Sissons, Zibanejad
    LW(3): Lehkonen, Burakovsky, Hymen
    RW(3): Bjorkstrand, Smith, Palmieri
    F(3): Stepan (C), Bjork (LW), Poehling (C)
    D(6): Carlson, Heiskanen, Bogosian, Edler, Hakanpaa, Fleury
    G(1): Talbot, Sorokin, Varlamov
    Bench: Parise (LW), Motte (C), Richardson (C), Hagg (D)
    IR: Wood, Henrique, Johnson, Dvorak

    Prospects: (F) Barre-Boulet, Khovanov, Beckman, Greig, N. Robertson, Fagemo, Tuomalaa, (D) Ceulemans, Hughes, Schneider, Zboril

  2. #17
    NoWayOut's Avatar
    NoWayOut is offline
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    6,054
    Location
    Harlan
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Wizard

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loch View Post
    So there is one thread about the players being in the dark about what their representative is doing and there is another thread about the owners potentially getting fed up with what their representative is doing.

    It's like a monkey shit fight at the zoo, only without the organization, productivity and entertainment value.
    Yes, but with 200% more shit being flung. Not sure if their finger painting the conference room wall with it though.
    Your beer mug isn't half-empty, your just half-way to the next refill.....

  3. #18
    Carcillo's Avatar
    Carcillo is offline
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    7,987
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Guru

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NoWayOut View Post
    My mistake in saying the NHL as a whole. That said the ones who appear to be steering this ship, the big market, mega deep pocket titans, want the union broken. They may be the minority in terms of numbers, but they wield all the clout. Yes, the NHL as a whole benefits from the NHLPA in the areas you mention, but this small cabal doesn't care.

    They're willing to sink this ship just to get their way, the overall success be damned. For all their intelligence in running their other business interests and making money, they only look at the small picture in this, which is just their franchise.

    If they break the union they can remove all these things they didn't want last time. If that means the small market clubs can't compete or can't survive, as far as these owners are concerned good riddance. Sort of reminds me of a country club that has a small group of old money families that look down their noses at the new money riff raff. They don't want them around, they resent them coming in and trying to influence events, and will do what they can to put them back in their place, so to speak.
    I really can't see that being a case. The deep pocket owners benefit from these smaller teams too and couldn't operate as succesfully without them IMO. You take away the union and all the benefits of collective bargaining (salary cap, draft etc.) and there isn't many teams that succesfully operate with teams like Toronto, Rangers and Montreal. Those teams could then acquire all the players they want and salaries would go through the roof. That would kill 10 or 20 teams almost instantly. The NHL wouldn't be as succesful with a smaller number of teams and no union. Salaries would skyrocket (players took over 70% before salary cap and would now take more), a lot of teams couldn't compete without draft, because of smaller number of teams there'd be less games and thus less revenue from ticket sales, money from TV-deals could become smaller etc.
    UHL Pittsburgh Penguins

    24 Team Fantrax Salary Cap H2H Dynasty League
    G, A, +/-, PIM, PPP, SHP, GWG, SOG
    , Hits, Blks, FOW
    W, GAA, SV, SV%, SO
    23 Man Roster - 3C, 3LW, 3RW, 3F, 6D, 1G, 4BN, 4IR
    27 Man Minor Team

    C-
    Tavares, Stepan, Granlund, Bjugstad, Couturier
    LW- Ryan, Perron, Ennis, Killorn, Spaling
    RW-
    Wheeler, Simmonds, Coyle, Wingels, Shaw
    D-
    JJ, Schultz, Cowen, Muzzin, Bortuzzo, Stanton
    G- Lehtonen, Rämö

    F: Lehterä, Wennberg,
    McNeill, de la Rose, Fast, Leivo, Arnold, Archibald, Lindström
    D: Gelinas, Beaulieu, Koekkoek, McCabe, Johns, Gryba
    G: Berra, Talbot, Brossoit, Ullmark, Lieuwen, Rynnäs

    *UHL Champion 2014*

  4. #19
    mister_mcgoo's Avatar
    mister_mcgoo is offline
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    19,119
    Rep Power
    0

    Banned

    Default

    I read this article today, it's largely speculative but an interesting read...it basically suggests that the owners are souring on Bettman's stubborn ******* approach to the whole process. The interesting part for me was to learn that that little imp can effectively block the will of the owners unless a supermajority oppose him. I really can't fathom why they haven't got rid of him

    http://mobile.philly.com/sports/?wss...9281&viewAll=y

  5. #20
    Loch's Avatar
    Loch is offline
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,206
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Master

    Default

    In honour of this lock-out fiasco I have changed my sig pic. I'll change it back to something nice when we get the NHL back.
    /S

    ~ I'm not a sociopath, it's just that my magnetic personality keeps throwing off my moral compass.~

    Victoria DH
    C(3): Athanasiou, Sissons, Zibanejad
    LW(3): Lehkonen, Burakovsky, Hymen
    RW(3): Bjorkstrand, Smith, Palmieri
    F(3): Stepan (C), Bjork (LW), Poehling (C)
    D(6): Carlson, Heiskanen, Bogosian, Edler, Hakanpaa, Fleury
    G(1): Talbot, Sorokin, Varlamov
    Bench: Parise (LW), Motte (C), Richardson (C), Hagg (D)
    IR: Wood, Henrique, Johnson, Dvorak

    Prospects: (F) Barre-Boulet, Khovanov, Beckman, Greig, N. Robertson, Fagemo, Tuomalaa, (D) Ceulemans, Hughes, Schneider, Zboril

  6. #21
    BrianSTC's Avatar
    BrianSTC is offline
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1,572
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Rep Power
    19

    Dobber Sports Stud

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yougo View Post
    I am quite curious as how could any hockey fan side with the owners.

    3rd lockout in 15 years. 1 lost season. Highest revenues by the league ever with the CBA , they wanted. Now we are heading into december with no hockey mostly because the owners are being ruthless.

    It's time for some billionaires to step up and start a new league. The NHL will never be able to win over the fans ever IMO. Atleast me.

    I will buy fake jerseys, fake hats, I will illegally stream their games but I don't think that I will ever give another penny to the NHL if we miss another season.
    First, it takes two to fight.

    Second, the last CBA is over, done, finished, history...

    Before resigning, Andrew Ladd was being paid 2.35 million per on his previous contract. That was a contract HE wanted. So according to your logic, Ladd should have re-signed for 2.35 million again. Yet, he sign for 4.4 million per.

    Just like Ladd's previous contract, the previous CBA has no relevance.
    ***2018-19 11th Place***

    16 TEAM KEEPER
    FORWARDS (G,A,Pts,+/-,PIM,PPG)
    LW:Marchand, Ehlers, Debrusk, Comtois (B-Empty)
    C:Matthews, White, Kotkaniemi, Hughes (B-Empty)
    RW:Laine, Labanc, Buchnevich, Terry (B-Kyrou)
    DEFENSE (G,A,+/-,PIM)
    Shea Weber, Ekman-Larsson, Morrissey, Schultz, Parayko, Hronek (B-Girard, Matheson)
    GOAL (Min,W,GGA)
    Hellebuyck, Markstrom, Samsonov
    PROSPECTS
    Lafraniere (2020)

  7. #22
    Maaaasquito's Avatar
    Maaaasquito is offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    3,449
    Location
    Melbourne, Austra
    Rep Power
    39

    Dobber Sports Expert

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mister_mcgoo View Post
    I read this article today, it's largely speculative but an interesting read...it basically suggests that the owners are souring on Bettman's stubborn ******* approach to the whole process. The interesting part for me was to learn that that little imp can effectively block the will of the owners unless a supermajority oppose him. I really can't fathom why they haven't got rid of him

    http://mobile.philly.com/sports/?wss...9281&viewAll=y
    It makes sense right... the thing is Bettman is responsible for the entire 30 owners, who all have an "equal" share in the league... The problem for the NHL, is that as much as they want it to be "equal" across the board, but it isn't in a financial sense. You have a handful of teams that are making money and/or breaking even. Then you have the majority in the red, which is a sign that things are broken... As much as we think differently, Bettman is actually not solely responsible for those owners who are making money, he's responsible for all of them. This lockout is more of an owner vs. owner problem with the players in the middle being tossed in as the "scapegoat"/solution to the problem.

    Snider is kicking up a fuss because he is one of the teams that this system is actually working for. He's actually one of the ones that are "circumventing the cap" that got us into this mess in the first place (Chris Pronger/Shea Weber offer sheet).

    The reason they haven't gotten rid of him, is that he's gotten the job done, as much as we hate him, he's gotten the owners everything they wanted without having to concede anything. You can't fire a guy for that. Until the majority of the owners don't find what he's contributing to the owners is worth it, he'll stay in charge of the owners...
    Dobber Expert Pool Champion 2011-12

  8. #23
    DuklaNation's Avatar
    DuklaNation is offline
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,269
    Rep Power
    21

    Dobber Sports Pro

    Default

    When people speak of revenues, they need to account for ALL costs. Higher revenue doesnt equal higher profits.

  9. #24
    Maaaasquito's Avatar
    Maaaasquito is offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    3,449
    Location
    Melbourne, Austra
    Rep Power
    39

    Dobber Sports Expert

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
    When people speak of revenues, they need to account for ALL costs. Higher revenue doesnt equal higher profits.
    You are right, but what it does show is that the industry is growing... You wouldn't want high profits but have the revenues going down either.
    Dobber Expert Pool Champion 2011-12

  10. #25
    Big Ev's Avatar
    Big Ev is offline
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    17,867
    Rep Power
    0

    Banned

    Default

    Let's just ask journalists like James Mirtle to solve the lockout for us. Because you know, if anyone knows anything about economics and business, it's hockey journalists.

  11. #26
    blayze's Avatar
    blayze is offline
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    15,241
    Location
    Toronto
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Ninja

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Carcillo View Post
    How are the owners being ruthless? They're looking for similar deal as NFL, NBA and MLB. In not one of those leagues do the players get even close to 57% of revenues.
    That's a bad comparison... the NHL's total revenue is a rounding error compared to those other pro sports. Also, players in those other leagues make astronomically more than NHL players in endorsements, merchandise and other ancillary revenue.

  12. #27
    blayze's Avatar
    blayze is offline
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    15,241
    Location
    Toronto
    Rep Power
    50

    Dobber Sports Ninja

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maaaasquito View Post
    Make an ultimatum and say this is the best and final offer, you have 72 hours to take it or leave it, or we'll cancel the season. State it publicly then follow up on it
    That will only end with one result - a cancelled season.

    Negotiations are a highly emotionally charged process... there is a lot of pride and ego involved, it is not solely about the dollars or the logical rationale. When you make a bold move like that (let's forget publicly), you are no longer challenging them on sense and reason, but at that point you are challenging their own personal sense of pride. It is human nature for people to intuitively protect their sense of pride and self-worth... when people feel threatened on this front, then all rationale goes out the window.

    In negotiations, you NEVER issue the ultimatum unless the other side has become totally unreasonable and you are 100% willing to live with the consequences.

    A very good friend of mine last-year issued an ill-advised ultimatum to her long-term boyfriend... marry me or stop wasting my time. She didn't truly mean it and she wasn't ready to walk away from the relationship, but she foolishly thought her tactic would work and that he would come to his senses. I told her not to table the issue like that, and doing so would be like cornering a tiger. She did it anyway and he dumped her after a week. She was devastated and regrets it to this day.
    Last edited by blayze; November 18, 2012 at 11:14 PM.

  13. #28
    Papps's Avatar
    Papps is offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    579
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Rep Power
    0

    Dobber Sports Apprentice

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    That will only end with one result - a cancelled season.

    Negotiations are a highly emotionally charged process... there is a lot of pride and ego involved, it is not solely about the dollars or the logical rationale. When you make a bold move like that (let's forget publicly), you are no longer challenging them on sense and reason, but at that point you are challenging their own personal sense of pride. It is human nature for people to intuitively protect their sense of pride and self-worth... when people feel threatened on this front, then all rationale goes out the window.

    In negotiations, you NEVER issue the ultimatum unless the other side has become totally unreasonable and you are 100% willing to live with the consequences.

    A very good friend of mine last-year issued an ill-advised ultimatum to her long-term boyfriend... marry me or stop wasting my time. She didn't truly mean it and she wasn't ready to walk away from the relationship, but she foolishly thought her tactic would work and that he would come to his senses. I told her not to table the issue like that, and doing so would be like cornering a tiger. She did it anyway and he dumped her after a week. She was devastated and regrets it to this day.
    I know in my marriage an ultimatum means I've lost either way. I think Bettman and the owners have the "cheaper to keeper" attitude. Better to keep workin it rather then suffer its fate. And possibly earlier then needed.

    The lockout has turned me sour. In 2004 there wasn't as much media and social networking as now. Not everything was leaked. Anybody else see how much the media was scrambling when the "unknown location" or "secret meeting" was held by the NHL & PA? They didn't know something and it was killing them.

    My point is who knew there were so many murderers or disasters before the news & Internet? Social media has allowed is to be monsters. Monsters of media and needing to know everything. We have apps for everything and its mobile. If we didn't have the media confusion and "posturing" would the lockout be over already??
    "dARK wING dUCKS" 2011-2012 CHAMPS

    10 Team Points Only Limited Keeper Pool (keep any 12)

    Top 12 Forwards, 5 Defense & 2 Goalies Count
    Goals = 1, Assist = 1, Shutout = 3, Win = 2,

    F: Kessel, Backstrom, Spezza, Benn, Voracek, Couture, Skinner, Wheeler, Stepan, Gaudreau, Schwartz, Ennis, Brown, Atkinson,
    D: Karlsson, Pieterangelo, Streit, Fowler, Enstrom, Gardiner, Sekera
    G: Price, Rinne, Smith

  14. #29
    Papps's Avatar
    Papps is offline
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    579
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Rep Power
    0

    Dobber Sports Apprentice

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    That will only end with one result - a cancelled season.

    Negotiations are a highly emotionally charged process... there is a lot of pride and ego involved, it is not solely about the dollars or the logical rationale. When you make a bold move like that (let's forget publicly), you are no longer challenging them on sense and reason, but at that point you are challenging their own personal sense of pride. It is human nature for people to intuitively protect their sense of pride and self-worth... when people feel threatened on this front, then all rationale goes out the window.

    In negotiations, you NEVER issue the ultimatum unless the other side has become totally unreasonable and you are 100% willing to live with the consequences.

    A very good friend of mine last-year issued an ill-advised ultimatum to her long-term boyfriend... marry me or stop wasting my time. She didn't truly mean it and she wasn't ready to walk away from the relationship, but she foolishly thought her tactic would work and that he would come to his senses. I told her not to table the issue like that, and doing so would be like cornering a tiger. She did it anyway and he dumped her after a week. She was devastated and regrets it to this day.
    I know in my marriage an ultimatum means I've lost either way. I think Bettman and the owners have the "cheaper to keeper" attitude. Better to keep workin it rather then suffer its fate. And possibly earlier then needed.

    The lockout has turned me sour. In 2004 there wasn't as much media and social networking as now. Not everything was leaked. Anybody else see how much the media was scrambling when the "unknown location" or "secret meeting" was held by the NHL & PA? They didn't know something and it was killing them.

    My point is who knew there were so many murderers or disasters before the news & Internet? Social media has allowed is to be monsters. Monsters of media and needing to know everything. We have apps for everything and its mobile. If we didn't have the media confusion and "posturing" would the lockout be over already??
    "dARK wING dUCKS" 2011-2012 CHAMPS

    10 Team Points Only Limited Keeper Pool (keep any 12)

    Top 12 Forwards, 5 Defense & 2 Goalies Count
    Goals = 1, Assist = 1, Shutout = 3, Win = 2,

    F: Kessel, Backstrom, Spezza, Benn, Voracek, Couture, Skinner, Wheeler, Stepan, Gaudreau, Schwartz, Ennis, Brown, Atkinson,
    D: Karlsson, Pieterangelo, Streit, Fowler, Enstrom, Gardiner, Sekera
    G: Price, Rinne, Smith

  15. #30
    Maaaasquito's Avatar
    Maaaasquito is offline
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    3,449
    Location
    Melbourne, Austra
    Rep Power
    39

    Dobber Sports Expert

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blayze View Post
    That will only end with one result - a cancelled season.

    Negotiations are a highly emotionally charged process... there is a lot of pride and ego involved, it is not solely about the dollars or the logical rationale. When you make a bold move like that (let's forget publicly), you are no longer challenging them on sense and reason, but at that point you are challenging their own personal sense of pride. It is human nature for people to intuitively protect their sense of pride and self-worth... when people feel threatened on this front, then all rationale goes out the window.

    In negotiations, you NEVER issue the ultimatum unless the other side has become totally unreasonable and you are 100% willing to live with the consequences.

    A very good friend of mine last-year issued an ill-advised ultimatum to her long-term boyfriend... marry me or stop wasting my time. She didn't truly mean it and she wasn't ready to walk away from the relationship, but she foolishly thought her tactic would work and that he would come to his senses. I told her not to table the issue like that, and doing so would be like cornering a tiger. She did it anyway and he dumped her after a week. She was devastated and regrets it to this day.
    I completely agree with you, the problem is all this politicking is going no where... Look at what the NHL has done, started at 43%, saying that's our best offer, then moving it to 47% and saying that's our best offer, then 50% and saying that's our best offer, then maybe tomorrow they go 51% and that's our best offer, they've constantly moved the bar at every offer... So if I were the players, I'd look at that and say well they've moved it this far, why wouldn't they move it some more, might as well wait... So might as well hold out for a "better" offer later.

    What I'm saying is all this posturing is sending mix messages, and continues to give the players a glimmer of hope for a better deal 2 weeks down the track. So why wouldn't they reject any deal the NHL proposes and wait for a better one 2 weeks later?

    All the NHL is doing is "threatening" the loss of a season, the players under Fehr don't actually believe it will happen (or they all would have flocked overseas already), they think the NHL has a self imposed deadline, and will hold out for the best possible deal, so we just sit and wait, while they posture and move the mark slowly to the middle.
    Last edited by Maaaasquito; November 19, 2012 at 3:12 AM.
    Dobber Expert Pool Champion 2011-12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •